Niro PHEV KW (amp hour) meter - Page 3 - Kia Niro Forum
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post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Are you sure the Level 1 charger is better for the battery? The manual implies the opposite, it recommends using a level 2 charger as often as you can.


I use a level 1 charger exclusively, but that's because it's not practical for me to use a Level 2 charger right now. If my circumstances change and I can install a Level 2 charger, that's what I'll do. Both for charging speed, and because it's what I've seen Kia recommend.
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Originally Posted by yticolev View Post
The manual is trying to avoid all liability for poor house wiring. Level one is fine, but should still be on a dedicated circuit.

The whole question about which is better for your PHEV battery, level 1 or level 2, deserves its own thread. A lot of confusion on that topic on this forum, and I think Kia needs to explain their recommendation that level 2 is better than level 1 for long term battery life. Personally, I still consider level 1 to be better for the battery in most scenarios, and I think some of the confusing Kia guidance might be misleading.


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Originally Posted by Roadkill401 View Post
I don't own a plug-in Niro, so for me it is a non-issue. But you also might want to consider the side of technology leap when looking towards the life of your car. Sure it would be nice to have a car that will last you well beyond the 10year mark. If you were a person who having the car last far beyond the 10-year mark for financial reasons, then I would seriously question why you would be buying this type of car in the first place. the Niro is not a cheap car. I have owned several cars over my life and have driven one of them for 13 years. it was a great car to own, but to be totally honest, the vehicle that it was replaced by was so much more technologically advanced that it was by far a better choice to ditch the old one and not fix it just to get something that was safer. It was a 1996 Ford Explorer Sport. and it did have ABS but not airbags. There was rudimentary traction control, and it was built on big steel but on compartmentalised crush safety zones etc. I replaced it with a 2006 Ford Escape that give me full curtain airbags, crush zone safety cage protection, traction control, rear backup sensors. It was that much more safer a vehicle that it was worth just repacing. I mention it as you are worrying about a battery that will likely die and need to be replaced in 10 years as you PHEV will not give you nearly the plug in distance that you'd like to get. It will however likely run just fine as a regular HEV. But in 10 years they will likely have developed new battery technology that supersedes what is offered today. There will also be new safety technology that will surpass what is there now and likely be worth your while to simply dump what you have as what is new will be just that much better the cost-benefit will more than justify the expense.
I was shopping for a used car about four years ago and I fell in love with a used Honda Accord HEV. The only thing that put me off about it was concern and unfamiliarity about the question of battery life. I didn't wind up buying it (because the sales guy was a jerk and because I wouldn't meet his price, but I did want it). I recently read that the cost to replace PHEV battery out of warranty exceeded the average cost of replacing an ICE. Yikes if true.

You've rightly listed some technology advancements that will surely come along in the next decade, but I think you left out one that might affect all of us. I imagine that as HEVs and PHEVs (and especially EVs) become more common, the ability for technicians to assess the current and future battery life span of a used car will improve, and that will affect our ability to sell our cars to a dealer or a private party in the future.


I believe that economics are important to most people who own Niros, even if they aren't necessarily the most important factor. I didn't exactly buy this car to save money, but I wouldn't have considered it if not for the financial incentives, probably would have purchased a used Prius instead. That means that I want to have a low cost of ownership, and I want to have a reasonable resale value at whatever point I choose to part with it. It seems to me like the battery health is likely to be a major factor in a car's resale value, someday in the future, even if most people don't really know how to assess that question today.


One article I read recently stated that a lot of people who are thinking about EVs and PHEVs are leasing rather than buying, for the reasons you mentioned: today's battery technology will probably be significantly improved a few years from now. I usually think of leasing a car as a way to throw away money, but perhaps the current state of battery technology is such that it actually would have been smarter to lease, rather than buy.

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post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 06:49 PM
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There is another reason lots of folks are leasing. It almost got me. Dealers offer great lease deals. Why? Because they can. By the time THEY take the government tax credit and depreciate the car over the lease terms, there is more profit in leasing rather than selling. The dealer will often leave out a discussion of the tax credit and obviously don't mention depreciating the car, often to far below the residual value.

Obviously nothing illegal or immoral but I paid a little over $2k less by not leasing when , on the surface, it seemed a better deal.

Back on topic, fast charging, charging to 100%, and high temperatures are all enemies of battery life. What did KIA do to minimize their effect is above my pay grade; we can only hope...
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post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 07:07 PM
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The whole question about which is better for your PHEV battery, level 1 or level 2, deserves its own thread. A lot of confusion on that topic on this forum, and I think Kia needs to explain their recommendation that level 2 is better than level 1 for long term battery life.
Kia doesn't say that anywhere. They simply suggest that level 1 should be reserved for emergencies. And that would be true if you have no idea about your house wiring.
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I was shopping for a used car about four years ago and I fell in love with a used Honda Accord HEV. The only thing that put me off about it was concern and unfamiliarity about the question of battery life. I didn't wind up buying it (because the sales guy was a jerk and because I wouldn't meet his price, but I did want it). I recently read that the cost to replace PHEV battery out of warranty exceeded the average cost of replacing an ICE.
The cost of replacing a Prius hybrid battery is under $2,000 at independent hybrid shops including labor and should be similar for most hybrids. The cost of the very large Volt battery (as far as I know it is the largest PHEV battery by perhaps double) is $3,000 plus labor.

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post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 07:11 PM
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Back on topic, fast charging, charging to 100%, and high temperatures are all enemies of battery life. What did KIA do to minimize their effect is above my pay grade; we can only hope...
All hybrids, and plug ins have buffered battery capacity. You cannot charge them to 100% of actual capacity. It is probably possible with some EVs and yes, with those you should only charge to 100% when you absolutely need maximum range.

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post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 02:16 AM
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Kia doesn't say that anywhere..
Yes, actually, they do. But not in the standard documentation. If you have the UVO Eco App and you click on one of the help pages of the App, it actually advises against using a level 1 charger and for using a level 2 charger. Someone posted a screenshot of that on a different thread on this forum. I think that guidance is bogus, but it has the appearance of being official Kia guidance, so we're left to puzzle over the contradiction.


I have seen that same guidance on my Android phone when reviewing the Kia Eco App, but my phone doesn't want to talk to my PC at the moment, so I can't easily post it. If you really want to see it, let me know and I'll jump through a few extra hoops so that you can have that pleasure.

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post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 06:37 PM
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Yes, actually, they do. But not in the standard documentation. If you have the UVO Eco App and you click on one of the help pages of the App, it actually advises against using a level 1 charger and for using a level 2 charger.
Exactly what the manual says. No distinction to the UVO language you posted.

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post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-08-2019, 02:21 PM
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Why buy a hybrid? Prius owners often exceed 10 years of service (including original battery) and there are a lot of Prii over 15 years old now. One of the most reliable cars on the road. Makes a lot of financial sense to keep a car long term, especially a hybrid that typically adds a couple thousand dollars to the purchase price over an equivalent car.

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The cost of replacing a Prius hybrid battery is under $2,000 at independent hybrid shops including labor and should be similar for most hybrids. The cost of the very large Volt battery (as far as I know it is the largest PHEV battery by perhaps double) is $3,000 plus labor.

Why are you using a Prius Hybrid as an example and compairingit against a Niro PHEV? I will bet that the battery for a plug in Prius is far more expensive than the hybrid version. Why would you think it would be the same? but has someone actually got the cost?

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post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-08-2019, 05:33 PM
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Why are you using a Prius Hybrid as an example and compairingit against a Niro PHEV? I will bet that the battery for a plug in Prius is far more expensive than the hybrid version. Why would you think it would be the same? but has someone actually got the cost?
Read it again. I used a sample price for both the HEV and PHEV as the post I was replying to was dubious about the cost of both. The Volt battery I used as one example is about twice the size of a Niro PHEV and the OEM cost from GM is $3,000. As a Prius HEV battery sells for about $1,000, you neatly have a far market price for the Niro at about $1,500. None of those include labor, but for the Prius, it is about $1,000 from an independent. I would expect about the same for the others.

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post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-08-2019, 06:29 PM
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All hybrids, and plug ins have buffered battery capacity. You cannot charge them to 100% of actual capacity. It is probably possible with some EVs and yes, with those you should only charge to 100% when you absolutely need maximum range.
Yes and No - It's true for all Niro HEV models. But for the PHEV, they are 2 battery's that merges into one on the cluster diplay..! (25% for HEV installed under the back seat, and 75% for the PHEV installed in the cargo floor).. the PHEV part can be loaded to 100% of it's capacity like an EV.. When the 75% is gone, then the 25% of the HEV kicks in and runs on it.!

Talking about 100% electric EV's, if you charged them on a level 3 charger (supercharger CHAdeMO or Combo) you will get a max of 80% of charge.. if you need the 20% left, you will have too make it with a level 2 charger.


@deltasmith: about the level 1 or level 2 for PHEV. You think that Kia needs to explain their recommendation that level 2 is better than level 1 for long term battery life.


Pretty simple, Time and Temperature..

Time - "Level 1 charging at work could also be a supplement for people driving over 40 miles per day, or even a substitute for those who can’t charge at home (because they don’t have a garage or fixed parking place, for example)."

Temperature - "Beyond range issues, Level 1 may not be suitable for primary charging in all cases. In extreme climates, more power may be required to maintain proper battery temperatures. In these cases, Level 2 charging may be more appropriate."

https://pluginamerica.org/understand...icle-charging/
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post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-08-2019, 09:48 PM
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Yes and No - It's true for all Niro HEV models. But for the PHEV, they are 2 battery's that merges into one on the cluster diplay..! (25% for HEV installed under the back seat, and 75% for the PHEV installed in the cargo floor).. the PHEV part can be loaded to 100% of it's capacity like an EV.. When the 75% is gone, then the 25% of the HEV kicks in and runs on it.!
Electrically, the PHEV has only one battery. You don't get to 360 volts electrically partitioning the battery. The partition for PHEV capacity and HEV capacity is in the software programming, it is completely the artificial decision of the engineers - there are no physical switches.
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