Level 1 or Level2 for the PHEV? - Page 2 - Kia Niro Forum
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post #11 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-10-2019, 01:58 PM
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And the level1 isn't so bad for the battery, just not as good as a 240v level2 charger that requires a special type of plug that you most likely would not find inside an average garage

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post #12 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-10-2019, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Carmichael View Post
Because the charger is only using 3.3 KWh, the load on a circuit of a 30 amp/240v is less than the 15 amp/120v.

You have to understand how a 240V circuit is wired for this to make sense. A 240V circuit is literally 2 120V circuits. A 120V circuit has Live and Neutral wires, a 240V circuit has 2-120V live wires. A 240 V circuit at the circuit breaker is literally 2-15 amp circuits next to each other.

A level 1 charger maxes out the live wire on 1-15 amp circuit. (15 amps)
A level 2 charger uses at most 90% of the capacity of the circuits. (13.5 amps each wire)

These are maximum possible current draws, with ideal wiring and minimal resistance (Ohms about 8 ohms for these numbers).


Watts = Volts x Amps
Volts = Watts ų Amps
Amps = Volts ų Watts
Ohms = Volts ų Amps

Cold weather makes Ohms rise, this is more resistance. More Ohms causes a much higher current flow to keep the same watts. Amps squares as ohms increases. Watts also equals the sqaure of Amps x Ohms. W=A≤ x O
I think you might have a typo in one of those equations.
I think when the resistance increases and the voltage stays constant, the current decreases.

Where did you get 3.3 KWh? Is that your estimate for energy to fully charge the PHEV battery? I thought it was a bit more than 8 KWh.
I agree that there's likely to be less current flowing in a level 2 charging circuit, and so a somewhat higher safety factor if you have concerns about the electrical wiring in your garage. But if you are using a dedicated 120V circuit that is in decent condition for Level 1 charging, I don't see that as a significant consideration.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Niro2zee View Post
I read an article about 120 vs 240 charging in regard to which is best for battery life. It stated that while 120 volt charging does not heat the traction battery as much as 240 charging does, it charges and heats the battery for a longer period of time making 240 volt charging slightly better for battery life in the long run. I am currently charging with 120 volts and it is working well for me but I will most likely install a 240 circuit in the near future to maximize battery life. I tried to find the articale to post a link but couldnít find it second time around.

Interesting idea and one that I hadn't considered. I wish you could find that article. I've read that the cooling fan can come on when charging, but I've yet to hear any sound to indicate that it was running. On the other hand, I'm usually asleep by the time it reaches the end of the charging cycle. Perhaps I'll make a point of charging during the day some time and check on it near the end of the cycle to see.


Level 2 is slightly more efficient than Level 1. But only slightly. I estimated that if I fully charged the PHEV battery every day, level 2 would save me about five cents/day in electric bills. Considering only the savings on the electric bill, I estimated the payback period for installing Level 2 hardware at about 78 years. Of course, if there's a benefit in terms of battery longevity, that might be a different matter.
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post #13 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-10-2019, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by deltasmith View Post
I think you might have a typo in one of those equations.
I think when the resistance increases and the voltage stays constant, the current decreases.

Where did you get 3.3 KWh? Is that your estimate for energy to fully charge the PHEV battery? I thought it was a bit more than 8 KWh.
I agree that there's likely to be less current flowing in a level 2 charging circuit, and so a somewhat higher safety factor if you have concerns about the electrical wiring in your garage. But if you are using a dedicated 120V circuit that is in decent condition for Level 1 charging, I don't see that as a significant consideration.





Interesting idea and one that I hadn't considered. I wish you could find that article. I've read that the cooling fan can come on when charging, but I've yet to hear any sound to indicate that it was running. On the other hand, I'm usually asleep by the time it reaches the end of the charging cycle. Perhaps I'll make a point of charging during the day some time and check on it near the end of the cycle to see.


Level 2 is slightly more efficient than Level 1. But only slightly. I estimated that if I fully charged the PHEV battery every day, level 2 would save me about five cents/day in electric bills. Considering only the savings on the electric bill, I estimated the payback period for installing Level 2 hardware at about 78 years. Of course, if there's a benefit in terms of battery longevity, that might be a different matter.
FWIW, More current in L2 than L1, not less. Relative charge times prove this.

level1 uses max 12a x 120v = 1440w. (Confirmed by measurement)

level2 uses max 16a x 240v = 3840w (IIRC)

1440w/3840w ~ 2.5hrs/6.5hrs respective charge time ratio
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post #14 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-10-2019, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by charlesH View Post
FWIW, More current in L2 than L1, not less. Relative charge times prove this.

level2 uses max 16a x 240v = 3840w (IIRC)

You can go up to a 30a fixed L2 charger at home, 16a chargers are more used for people that transports their 240v chargers to their cottage and other places that has a 240v plug installed.

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post #15 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-10-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by deltasmith View Post
I think you might have a typo in one of those equations.
I think when the resistance increases and the voltage stays constant, the current decreases.

Where did you get 3.3 KWh? Is that your estimate for energy to fully charge the PHEV battery? I thought it was a bit more than 8 KWh.
I agree that there's likely to be less current flowing in a level 2 charging circuit, and so a somewhat higher safety factor if you have concerns about the electrical wiring in your garage. But if you are using a dedicated 120V circuit that is in decent condition for Level 1 charging, I don't see that as a significant consideration.
Ohms law is empirical. It is the resistance of a material to conduct electricity that is based on the type of material, the length, and the diameter. Copper, Silver, Iron, Gold. 10 ft, 20ft, 50ft. 16 AWG, 12 AWG, 0 AWG, 00 AWG. All factor into the resistance of the current flow.

The 3.3 KW charger: (Typo was using KWh instead of KW)
3.3 KW is how fast it can charge.
8.9 KWh is how much charge it can hold.

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post #16 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-10-2019, 05:02 PM
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There is energy in the home mains supply. The issue is that this AC energy has to be converted within the car to DC for charging. This in car AC to DC converter is rated at 3.3kw. Now in the US and Canada we have single phase supply 120v. Elsewhere it is often only240V. The in car converter is more suited to a 240v supply since it is designed to run at that rate given that the 240v is more universal.. It does allow charging at half the voltage but that also in North America means half the amperage given that 120v circuits come with thinner wiring.This about quadruples the charging time and impacts the service lifetime of the charging process. Probably this is the source of KIA preferring 240v level2 charging.
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post #17 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-10-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by lafe005 View Post
You can go up to a 30a fixed L2 charger at home, 16a chargers are more used for people that transports their 240v chargers to their cottage and other places that has a 240v plug installed.
no doubt, but the niro prev only uses <16a x 240v = 3840w

8900Whr / 2.5hr = 3560W

8000Whr /2.5 = 3200W

3300W/240 V= ~ 14a

Charging times, L1 6.5hrs, L2 2.5 hrs

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Last edited by charlesH; 02-10-2019 at 05:19 PM.
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post #18 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-10-2019, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by charlesH View Post
FWIW, More current in L2 than L1, not less. Relative charge times prove this.

level1 uses max 12a x 120v = 1440w. (Confirmed by measurement)

level2 uses max 16a x 240v = 3840w (IIRC)

1440w/3840w ~ 2.5hrs/6.5hrs respective charge time ratio

I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out. Presumably, the level 2 charging circuit is using at least 10 gauge wire and is up for the increased current as a result.

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post #19 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-11-2019, 02:44 AM
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Level1/level 2

Havenít been able to find that artical on level 1 vs level 2 charging. I wish Kia would give an explanation as to why they recommend level 2 over level 1. Theories range from legal to longevity. I asked my local Kia service manager but he had no clue and said the level one charger was fine. Heat is the enemy. Less heat over a longer period of time (level 1) or more heat over a shorter time (level 2), which is better? Based on what Iíve read in this forum and elsewhere and given the fact that Kia recommends level 2 I will be installing a 240 circuit and switch to level 2 before summer hits. Right now I have my charging programmed to be done at 5:30 Am. Itís been in the 20-30 degree range at night so not as worried about the battery heat issue at the moment.

Another factor in battery longevity is number of charging cycles. Right now I plug my car in after every days use whether I have 5 or 20 miles of range left. Should I be topping off the 20 mile range if I donít think Iím going to need it the next day? Any thoughts?
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post #20 of 56 (permalink) Old 02-11-2019, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Niro2zee View Post
Haven’t been able to find that artical on level 1 vs level 2 charging. I wish Kia would give an explanation as to why they recommend level 2 over level 1. Theories range from legal to longevity. I asked my local Kia service manager but he had no clue and said the level one charger was fine. Heat is the enemy. Less heat over a longer period of time (level 1) or more heat over a shorter time (level 2), which is better? Based on what I’ve read in this forum and elsewhere and given the fact that Kia recommends level 2 I will be installing a 240 circuit and switch to level 2 before summer hits. Right now I have my charging programmed to be done at 5:30 Am. It’s been in the 20-30 degree range at night so not as worried about the battery heat issue at the moment.

Another factor in battery longevity is number of charging cycles. Right now I plug my car in after every days use whether I have 5 or 20 miles of range left. Should I be topping off the 20 mile range if I don’t think I’m going to need it the next day? Any thoughts?
batteries always prefer to be charged at slower charge rates

I would stay with L1 until Kia engineering explains their L2 preference

L2 is better (for the battery) than L3 and L1 is better than L2.

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Last edited by charlesH; 02-11-2019 at 09:55 AM.
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