Level 1 or Level2 for the PHEV? - Page 5 - Kia Niro Forum
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post #41 of 52 (permalink) Old 02-14-2019, 07:31 AM
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Has a charge (SOC) meter that on flattish roads (I live in Ohio) stays within two increments of "half" full about 80 percent of the time during warm weather. Range remaining number which for me is not a very useful number until it is less than 100 miles (it does not consider EV miles). A power meter analog style that shows whether battery is charging or discharging. And of course there is an optional hybrid display to show power flow. Finally there is an instant mpg gauge and an average mpg number display.
So very similar to the PHEV overall. Does the battery SOC indicator included an estimate of EV miles like the PHEV? I think that's the source of the confusion that when the EV range is 0 miles there are still some number of bars left on the display which is very different from how the gas gauge display works. Empty means empty for the gas gauge but not for the battery gauge.

I would think from a user interface point of view it would be better to make the SOC meter work like the gas gauge. There's no reason for the SOC display to show unusable capacity. Most people don't know or don't care that the battery is not completely discharged when switching to HEV mode, just that there is no usable charge left.

Again, nit-pickers gonna pick nits.

Jim
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post #42 of 52 (permalink) Old 02-14-2019, 05:02 PM
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From a technical standpoint, there are zero EV miles on a hybrid. All there is is recaptured energy developed from burning gasoline. That includes direct engine to battery charging, and momentum derived battery charging. This simply makes the total system more efficient than an ICE only vehicle.

You can make the same statement about the PHEV once the EV miles from plugging in are exhausted.
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post #43 of 52 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Jason Carmichael View Post
Because the charger is only using 3.3 KWh, the load on a circuit of a 30 amp/240v is less than the 15 amp/120v.

You have to understand how a 240V circuit is wired for this to make sense. A 240V circuit is literally 2 120V circuits. A 120V circuit has Live and Neutral wires, a 240V circuit has 2-120V live wires. A 240 V circuit at the circuit breaker is literally 2-15 amp circuits next to each other.

A level 1 charger maxes out the live wire on 1-15 amp circuit. (15 amps)
A level 2 charger uses at most 90% of the capacity of the circuits. (13.5 amps each wire)

These are maximum possible current draws, with ideal wiring and minimal resistance (Ohms about 8 ohms for these numbers).

Watts = Volts x Amps
Volts = Watts Amps
Amps = Volts Watts
Ohms = Volts Amps

Cold weather makes Ohms rise, this is more resistance. More Ohms causes a much higher current flow to keep the same watts. Amps squares as ohms increases. Watts also equals the sqaure of Amps x Ohms. W=A x O
You obviously don't understand Ohms Law and Watts Law. Where does it say it is a constant power charger. Get real, if the resistance goes up the current DOES NOT increase.

Bottom line, the ICCB (In-Cable Control Box) that came with the car for 120 Volt A.C. in USA works very well and puts less stress on the battery bank than a "Fast" charger. Anyway, the actual charger is built into the car and it converts the 120 or 240 Volt A.C. to a higher D.C. Voltage to charge the battery bank..
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post #44 of 52 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 05:56 PM
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So what you're saying is that there is 120 or 240 AC at the plug and the car transforms and rectifies it as required for charging. The control box? Does it do any more than cut the power when told by the car? If that's all it does, why so expensive?
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post #45 of 52 (permalink) Old 02-16-2019, 08:10 AM
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So what you're saying is that there is 120 or 240 AC at the plug and the car transforms and rectifies it as required for charging. The control box? Does it do any more than cut the power when told by the car? If that's all it does, why so expensive?
There is a little more than that going on. There are communications between the car and the charger to determine charging current available, charging current required, etc.

Here's a quick rundown of the whole thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
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post #46 of 52 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 09:46 PM
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Indeed a bit more. With the price of copper these days, I suppose they are not that much overpriced.....
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post #47 of 52 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by deltasmith View Post
Presumably, the level 2 charging circuit is using at least 10 gauge wire and is up for the increased current as a result.
Copper AWG 10 wire is good for 30-40 amps, depending on wire type (NM-B, UF-B, THWN-2, THHN, etc.), so that's way overkill for a L2 charger for our cars. Even using NM-B, 12 gauge would be sufficient as it's rated at 20 amps, and using THHN you're up to 30 amps.

When my home was built, I had a 50 amp circuit installed for a future hot tub. He used THHN AWG 8, and I used that tub for over 20 years. Since the tub is long gone, I just pulled the wires back to the garage to wire a 220 outlet for my Niro. Since the circuit breaker will still be 50 amp, I'm leaving the wiring size as is, and just putting the correct outlet at the end. Since I had everything already, it's costing me virtually nothing to wire a plug for my L2 charger. Of course, I'm not afraid of poking around in a hot breaker box. No one should do that unless they know what they're doing.

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post #48 of 52 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 05:08 PM
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You are correct the Niro PHEV onboard charger electric circuitry will only accept around 16 amps maximum. It is very dangerous to use a 50 amp breaker on this circuit if that is what your are thinking of doing . You should replace the breaker with one for 20 amps. Your circuit breaker is the main safely device in your circuit that will limit power surges, react to an over amperage situation or protect from a complete short of the system. You can get a double pole 20 amp breaker for less than $10 and keep yourself and your loved ones safe.
Also when you buy a Level 2 charger make sure it is UL listed. A good licensed electrician will not install it or work on the system if it is not UL listed for liability reasons. If someone got hurt or there was a structure damage due to fire he would be liable for working on it.
If the structure was damaged and it was determined a non UL listed device was installed there could be some contention if the insurance company is actually liable. These devices transfer amperage that can cause death and structure damage if they are not installed correctly or an unexpected event happens - car runs over plug and smashes it, plug dropped in water etc.

Last edited by Johnxyz; Yesterday at 05:12 PM.
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post #49 of 52 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 07:48 PM
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You are correct the Niro PHEV onboard charger electric circuitry will only accept around 16 amps maximum. It is very dangerous to use a 50 amp breaker on this circuit if that is what your are thinking of doing . You should replace the breaker with one for 20 amps. Your circuit breaker is the main safely device in your circuit that will limit power surges, react to an over amperage situation or protect from a complete short of the system. You can get a double pole 20 amp breaker for less than $10 and keep yourself and your loved ones safe.
Also when you buy a Level 2 charger make sure it is UL listed. A good licensed electrician will not install it or work on the system if it is not UL listed for liability reasons. If someone got hurt or there was a structure damage due to fire he would be liable for working on it.
If the structure was damaged and it was determined a non UL listed device was installed there could be some contention if the insurance company is actually liable. These devices transfer amperage that can cause death and structure damage if they are not installed correctly or an unexpected event happens - car runs over plug and smashes it, plug dropped in water etc.
I believe the CB is there to protect the wire not the appliances plugged into the outlet.

If my AV system only uses 200 watts (<2amps) do I need to replace the 15amp CB protecting the line?

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post #50 of 52 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 08:38 PM
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On equipment that draws substantial current or a dedicated circuit you are always encouraged to limit the amperage to the rated device. For example a dryer is on a 30 amp circuit to limit its current draw to 30 amps. Sure you could wire it for 60 amps with a 60 amp circuit breaker and 60 amp wiring. If the Dryer heating element touches the case or if the motor binds and draws excessive amperage the circuit wired for 60 amps will supply 60 amps to the dryer until that threshold is exceeded. The appliance wiring is not rated for 60 amps and by code it must be put on a 30 amp breaker to limit the amount of current it sees.

A Level 2 car charging device is for example rated for 20 amps (or more in some cases). If a circuit is capable of supplying 50 amps and there was a catastrophic failure of the device you could have 50 amps going to a device that is rated for 20 amps. Even if the device has some safety protection and regulating circuitry this is still considered a very unsafe situation. A Level 2 car charger should have its own dedicated circuit that is installed for that device with its circuit protection designed around that device. That is the difference between a normal house branch circuit that can have many items plugged into it and a dedicated circuit.

A Level 1 charger on the other hand can be plugged into any grounded circuit. That is why KIA and others supply the Level 1 chargers. The are convenient, don't require a dedicated circuit and can be immediately used by the consumer to charge their new vehicle. Imagine a consumers dismay if they found they were supplied with a Level 2 charger that required a special dedicated circuit and then the average consumer would be tasked with paying an electrician to install a new circuit for a substantial cost before the consumer could charge their car.

Here is a short video on Charging Station Safety - they have other videos on how to size circuit protection and many other topics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=_TFgeRBLyls
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