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EV miles/kwh and range

25K views 60 replies 12 participants last post by  atc98092 
#1 ·
I just joined the forum looking for discussions on the EV. Perhaps I'm missing the threads but all I see are discussions on the hybrid, not the EV. So let me ask these two question of those who have the EV:

- What mileage are you seeing? I've been averaging 4.8 miles/kwh, according to the onboard computer. That's using max regen (I rarely touch the brakes).

- What range are you getting? The specs listed a 239 mile range but I've getting a consistent 300 miles!! That's far better than the specs which makes me wonder if it's a fluke, or was Kia being cautious on the specs after they got burned cheating on the MPG specs for ICE cars a few years ago.
 
#2 ·
Welcome to the forum! We suggest adding your location in your profile, and you car details in your signature line.

You are right that the majority of forum members have either the HEV or PHEV. remember the hybrid has been available the longest, the PHEV next, and the EV is a fairly recent release. I might have gone for the EV when I got mine, but there were no EX Premium trim models within 800 miles at the time.

I have seen/read several times that the e-Niro and the Hyundai Kona EV are beating the EPA mileage estimates fairly easily, as you seem to also confirm. Of course, it's going to drop significantly when winter arrives, unless you're in a southern state that doesn't see really cold temps. The PHEV has no indication of EV power consumption, and even if it did it wouldn't compare to the EV model, since you have a much more powerful motor and battery.

But I can give another range data point. The other day I had to run enough errands that I used all the EV range. I had a hill I went up and another I came down, and I had the A/C on the whole time. My car is rated at 24 miles with HVAC enabled, but I went 34 miles before the engine kicked on. So Kia has definitely done a good job on electrical efficiency.
 
#3 ·
EPA ratings of EV range are most likely derive from a calculation based on a range of temperatures. Thus on an annual basis, the range may be accurate. Exceeding it under optimal conditions, and failing to meet it under other conditions - like cold, inclement, windy weather; and speed. And I believe the EPA heavily depends on manufacturer data to come up with their numbers, not actually performing physical tests on all vehicles. That is why some manufacturers seem to come in with overly optimistic numbers across their range.
 
#4 ·
As others have said your actual range will depend strongly on your driving style and road conditions. I have the PHEV and I've been getting ~3.5-4 miles / kWh in EV mode over 18 months and 27,000 miles. Most of my driving is under 50mph with a bit of highway driving each day. I almost always exceed the 26 mile projected range even with the A/C on so at least in my case, the estimate is conservative. As in everything else, YMMV. :D
 
#5 ·
Good points, ATC98902. I just updated some info in my profile. Hopefully it's visible.

I knew the EV was very new, just not sure how many they've sold so far this year - and how many of those people will eventually find this forum. In fact, I had to wait months before the dealer got one that I could buy.

As for mileage diminishing in the winter, that will certainly happen but the amount might not be as bad as other EVs. Kia offers a "cold weather" package that includes a heat pump for heating the cabin. It's an "option" but always included in cars sold in cold climates, such as this one. So my car came with it (and it wasn't free). In theory a heat pump should be far more efficient than resistive heat because the battery is not being used to general heat, just transfer it from outside to inside. It's the same technology as heat pumps used for residences. It's basically air-conditioning in reverse. One article I found on the Dept of Energy's website says that heat pumps use about 50% less electricity than resistive heating. They were discussing residential systems so that might not apply to the Kia. Winter is coming so we'll see.
 
#6 ·
Yes, a heat pump is usually far more efficient, up to a point. Once the outdoor temp drops below around 30F, resistance heat will still likely be necessary to completely warm the cabin. You can minimize that of course by using the heated seats and steering wheel (if you have that) and keep the cabin temp setting lower than normal. Some people (like myself) can't remain comfortable at lower temps, however, so there's still going to be a current draw for resistance heat. My fingers start turning blue, then white, even when it's as warm as 60F outside, so I'll be using the heat plenty in wintertime. Of course, Seattle doesn't get as cold as Boston. :)
 
#7 ·
I have the Canadian EV SX Touring which is close to the EX Premium in USA. Off course we get the heat pump for free, and also health care for free. But I digress. ;)

I have driven almost 7500 km by now and the average according to the car is 16.1 kWh/100km. Yeah I know metric, pain in the a.. So that is an average of almost 3.9 miles/kWh recorded over 4700 miles. Now consider that I commute about 50 miles per day of which roughly 40 miles is on the only highway we have in our part of the world. But it has an HOV lane, which us EV drivers are allowed to use. So lots of 75 mph, I average about 62 mph on the HOV lane. Which means I sometimes need to make swift passings because some folks actually stick to the speed limit (which is below my average 0:) ) And that driving style consumes energy.

In the city I am forced to more moderate speeds and accelerations due to traffic density and therefore average around 4.4 miles/kWh. Still not that impressive if you listen to PHEV drivers, but keep in mind that the EV has a much more powerful battery and motor, which begs to be used. And our city is everything from flat, and who said you should not accelerate when going uphill?

I do drive in ECO mode. Not to save kWh, but to limit my speed (set at 75 mph), otherwise I would be in real trouble.
The kWh is dirt cheap here. At home I pay US$0.085, most public chargers still offer the charging for free! So with an avg of almost 17k miles per year, I am paying US$30 per month on electricity for charging (do almost all of my charging at home). I used to have the HEV which costs me US$150 per month on gas for the same distance (yup, those gas drinkers pay carbon taxes at the pump (about US$0.26/gallon :eek:), electricity here is 95% renewable non CO2 emitting - hydro). So it feels great to have a sporty car, environment friendly and super cheap on the variable costs.

Hope this helps. :)
 
#8 ·
The kWh is dirt cheap here. At home I pay US$0.085, most public chargers still offer the charging for free! So with an avg of almost 17k miles per year, I am paying US$30 per month on electricity for charging (do almost all of my charging at home). I used to have the HEV which costs me US$150 per month on gas for the same distance (yup, those gas drinkers pay carbon taxes at the pump (about US$0.26/gallon :eek:), electricity here is 95% renewable non CO2 emitting - hydro). So it feels great to have a sporty car, environment friendly and super cheap on the variable costs.

Hope this helps. :)
I'm convinced my next car will be a full BEV. No more gas. Hopefully in 3 years when my lease is up on my PHEV I can score a used Niro EV, Kona EV, or the Soul EV.
 
#12 ·
I have the PHEV, and while I don't generally record my recharge KWH's. I did after one trip which brought my battery to almost nothing (well 20% or whatever just before it goes into hybrid mode). I did 67 km's and it took 7.99 KWH's to recharge. Assuming my math is right that works out to be 5.2 miles per KWH. Not sure if the EV or PHEV is expected to be more efficient in pure EV mode. Maybe the PHEV, as I know if I hit the go peddle to hard the ICE will kick on, so I always drive in the "ECO" zone. Plus the PHEV is about 430 lbs lighter.
 
#13 ·
That's probably accurate. As you noted, our PHEVs are lighter than the EV. Also, if you drive to never engage the ICE you are treading very lightly on the throttle, so automatically driving more economical. in addition, the EV motor in the PHEV has far less power than the EV version, so it uses less power overall.

Yes, 20% is where the ICE will generally fire up. But depending on your driving in HEV mode, I've seen my battery go as low as 12-13% with hill climbing or other harder driving. But that does seem to be the threshold where your range reads zero and the engine comes on. Of course, when it clicks to 0, it really 0.99, so you have just under a mile before you're "really" at zero. :D

You got me beat really good. The best I've done in EV mode was 34 miles (54.7 Km), although that was with the A/C on and some up and down hills. Still pretty good!
 
#14 · (Edited)
I put in the money for a Niro EV reservation back in Dec’18 without any idea what the car would cost. But I figured with my daily average of 50 miles the PHEV wasn’t going to be a big difference from the HEV. I made a test drive in the EV (first car in Canada!) during the Vancouver auto show late Mar’ 19. No pricing available, but I was hooked. The acceleration, the silence. Yes, I had to take deep breath when the dealer called me 2 weeks later and told me the price. It was CA$8000 more then I had estimated. But I have been looking for an EV for 3 years and the promising Model 3 was just too small on the inside (I sat in one during the auto show). And the base model 3 is equally expensive as the Niro EV (at least here in Canada). So the Model 3 version I would take would be really out of my financial range. So I traded in the HEV with a substantial loss (because of an vehicle accident), but figured that I would drive the EV for at least 8 years without a problem. Which will be a new record, because I never had a car longer then 4 years (because of leasing) with one exception: I once owned a VW Vento for 7 years (125,000 miles): that car kept working.
I can’t lease because I drive too much for leasing. So I financed and while my monthly charge is a bit more then my normal budget, it is about the same cost as I don’t have to buy the gas and the maintenance will also be substantially lower (all they do during annual maintenance is top off brake fluid and rotate tires).
What I also underestimated was the cost of installing the L2 charger at home. They had to pull a lengthy new cable from the distribution panel to the garage: US$1300 all in. But very professionally done and the company was super accommodating to my wishes.
So financially maybe not the wisest decision. But hey, I am not looking back and enjoy the ride every day. In particular the adaptive cruise control is a delight on my commute on the HOV lane. That was not possible with my previous Niro, in which I had some pretty scary moments on the highway. Metro Vancouver is home to the worst driving habits I have experienced in my life, and if I tell you that I have driven 500,000 miles in some 20 countries, I have something to back up my claim. The HOV lane is almost like a VIP lane, and keeping the stress level lower is also worth something.

Sorry for getting a bit off topic!
 
#15 ·
As mentioned by PBodifee the Niro EV offers far better real life range than spec'd by Kia. I have had my 2019 Kia Niro EV SX Touring (Canadian version of the EX Premium with all options added), since May 6th, I have 9500km on it. I used to drive in Normal and Sport mode all of the time, just because it's fun, but now I mix Eco and Sport modes. My last few charges have averaged about 14.1kWh/100km, compared to about 16kWh/100km previously. I have gone 452km on a full charge and that was in Sport and Normal with a fair mix of city and highway. I have also gone 360km, all highway at about 110km/h, bad weather (about 5C, rain and wind), on one charge and had about 40km showing as left over range. This car is a beast.
With that being said, range depends on: Driving style, weather, temperature, highway vs city, grade of the road (hills vs flat), use of AC or heat, accessories, etc. So there are lots of variables that can affect your range, but you will probably see more than the published range from Kia on a regular basis. Good thing you got the Premium options for cold weather, it will help a lot.
 
#16 ·
With that being said, range depends on: Driving style, weather, temperature, highway vs city, grade of the road (hills vs flat), use of AC or heat, accessories, etc. So there are lots of variables that can affect your range, but you will probably see more than the published range from Kia on a regular basis. Good thing you got the Premium options for cold weather, it will help a lot.
I am tracking power usage while driving using car scanner on the iPhone which can read the data from the BMS ECU in real time. I think the biggest contributor is speed (because of aerodynamic drag). Even acceleration and grade gets compensated by regen during deceleration and down hill (even on minor slope). AC is hardly noticeable for cooling. Today after work my car had an inside temp of 46C. Within 5 minutes the AC had it down to 29C (the outside temp) and within another 10 min down to 22C. Cooling down takes about 1.5kW, once at set temp it takes about 0.7-0.8 kW. To me not a reason not to use the AC! I even leave the car on with AC while I have to wait some time when picking up someone.
Will be interesting to see what the winter will do to energy consumption. I guess it will be again minor dependent on how well the car is insulated. What may be a concern for those living in extreme low temperatures is the fact that the battery capacity will go down (which impacts range). But given that the battery can be fully recharged overnight you must be in real bad commuting situation where you would use all the capacity in a single day.
 
#17 ·
Yes, speed is the biggest contributor to power usage. Even with the ICE. My old Subaru was most fuel efficient around 55 km/h, in 4th gear. I've altered my route to work, now it's off the highway and surprisingly it's a smidge faster. I always knew it was a shorter distance but thought it took longer because of the slower speeds and traffic (28 vs 20 km's).


If it takes 5 minutes to cool the car to the outside temperatures I would have opened the windows instead for the first bit of the drive. You can dump heat a lot faster with the windows open. At least until you get on a highway where it would be too noisy.
 
#18 ·
If it takes 5 minutes to cool the car to the outside temperatures I would have opened the windows instead for the first bit of the drive. You can dump heat a lot faster with the windows open. At least until you get on a highway where it would be too noisy.
I open the windows and tilt the roof. But when I leave work I am within 1-2 minutes on the highway in the HOV lane. So not enough time to do natural cooling.
 
#23 ·
"It doesn't matter how quickly you accelerate the car. The energy required is the same."

I would concur with that, solely from my observations of the SoC display in the car. I have two options to reach the top of the hill I live on. Both routes are the same distance, but one goes to the right, is steeper with a stop sign about half way up, then more climbing. The other way goes to the left, winding around but with a less inclined road. They both reach a stop light at the top. I can take the steeper route, which requires harder acceleration, and the SoC shows 95% at the top (leaving the garage indicating 100%). I can take the shallower route, and really baby the throttle, and I still show 95% at the stoplight. So, traveling the same distance, with two different driving patterns, but the same amount of power used either way.
 
#24 ·
actually your consuming energy climbing a hill in addition to what ever energy is used to accelerate the car.

Still the principle is the same. The potential energy stored up climbing the hill is the same whether you climb via a steep road or or a gentle road.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Ok, before we all are going to “kill each other” on how well we remembered the stuff we had to learn during physics class, let us go back to a practical example to figure out why you should use EV mode in the city and ICE on the highway. That is if you have the PHEV.

As someone rightfully stated the power an ICE can produce is not constant over the total range of RPM available to propel the car. This has been THE engineering challenge forever since ICE were used in vehicles. To optimize the solution engineers worked forever on designing transmissions and the fuel burning process. Electromotors have the ability to pretty much use the maximum power over the complete RPM range. That is why there is no need for a transmission in an EV.
Engineers have studied and experimented at length what will create overal average the best fuel consumption for a car without sacrificing too much performance. The result remains a sub-optimal energy consumption.

I can’t say my driving is typical, but I have driven 2 cars that are about the same size and shape (Niro EV and the BMW X1 2L Turbo) both having motors with roughly same power (150kW) and I drove them under the same circumstances (driving style, terrain). The long term average on my EV is 16.1 kWh/100km, my X1 consumed on average 12l/100km. I know it is metric, but for comparison this makes it a bit easier. So how much energy is in 12l of gasoline? According to this answer by a Professor 12l gasoline contains 108 kWh of energy! If I would assume that the BMW engine is highly inefficient (BMW would disagree!) at 20%, then there is almost 22kWh used per 100km to obtain the same driving. Which shows the inefficiency of the transmission, but also the lack of the ICE being able to regenerate forces to slow down the car back into the energy form it has on board (gasoline).

So long story short for the PHEV drivers: use EV mode in the city and ICE on a longer highway stretch as soon as you arrive at cruising speed.

Is the car able to detect this and automate this for you? So you don’t need any of the knowledge while driving and can listen to the music? Only when it has a location based system with data on the type of road you are on in combination with real-time traffic conditions, so it can reliable predict the driving style (e.g. GPS based navigation system you can find in the Niro). The computer making the decisions which engine to use will need this info in combinatinon with speed and the throttle position. Since a nav system in a car is still being sold as a way to find your way and still seen as a luxury for which you can charge additional money, it is not yet used for this purpose. Maybe some day it will become a competitive advantage for a car manufacturer to automate the optimal use of motors in a PHEV. I am sure the engineers have this already worked out, but the product managers and marketeers are not yet in. Time will tell!
 
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#35 ·
This weekend I reset the accumulated info counters to see what pure city driving does in my neck of the woods: I averaged 14.5 kWh/100km (4.3 miles/kWh). That was in ECO mode but driving as swift as usual. So clearly my long time average of 16.1 kWh/100km is mainly because of 75% highway driving at 60 mph and more.
 
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#36 ·
Just got my monthly UVO health report stating I drove 1985 km and had 833 kWh of regen.
If I a use my long term average of 16.1 kWh/100km I have net consumed 320 kWh. Which means the total energy needed to accelerate the car and maintain speed was 1152 kWh. Curious what other EV owners see in their consumption. Seems to me like I am getting relatively a lot energy back from regen. But on the other hand I love the acceleration 0:), we have hilly terrain and I always have regen set to max (which the Smart Cruise Control also leverages).
 
#38 ·
@charlesH, it would be great if you can get some hard numbers about if the traction motor is drawing any power while stopped with the foot on brake. It certainly feels like the "creep" is energizing the motor even while stopped. I'd like some current data on how much, if any, is being consumed. I'm not questioning the person who reported it earlier, but in case there's been firmware updates I'd like to know what you might measure. Need to determine if it's enough of a draw to justify moving to neutral while stopped, then remembering to move back to Drive when it's time to go. I've forgotten that a couple of times, and it's embarrassing to be sitting there pressing the pedal and nothing happens. :eek:
 
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#39 ·
[MENTION=7791]Need to determine if it's enough of a draw to justify moving to neutral while stopped, then remembering to move back to Drive when it's time to go. I've forgotten that a couple of times, and it's embarrassing to be sitting there pressing the pedal and nothing happens. :eek:
It becomes something you do without even thinking. While I came from manual cars that I always shifted into neutral at stop lights to relax my left leg, I went the first eight months without doing that on the Niro until this issue came up in the forums. I think in the last 10 months, I've only forgotten to shift back twice. Really strange as you cannot rev the engine in neutral so you have to think about why you are not moving. Resting your right hand on the shifter is a good way to remember you have to shift!

Kind of cool to be sitting at lights without your brake light on (can only be done on dead flat surfaces - doesn't take much for the car to roll). Cars behind you must think you are driving a manual. In my case, I found the eco emblem on the back to be ugly so I removed it. They would really wonder if they knew I was driving a hybrid. There is a manual shift hybrid by the way, the Honda CRZ. Mpg not so good on that car, maybe not as good as a Yaris. As a former CRX owner (HF high mpg version), I would have have loved an even higher mpg CRX hybrid, but the CRZ is not it.
 
#46 ·
Sorry. What other things? That's a lot for modern electronics. More than my computer and screen. More than many large screen TVs. The car has a dash and a touch screen lit by LEDs. A few odd processing units, also low draw, especially when car is stationary.
 
#48 ·
So I took my car out for a drive for the first time in over a week, and guess what? On the issue of power used at a stop, both sides may not be wrong. With a light push on the brake, the car changed attitude and the brakes groaned a bit as slack was taken up or released between D and N. But with a hard press, I could not discern any difference. Charles hopefully will be able to confirm that.

So that brings back up the hill hold function I believe. Anyone know how it works? Fully mechanical, or computer operated? I had a couple panic stops in my first three months of ownership and the way the brakes worked was seriously scary. They stayed on for a second or two (still maximum deceleration) after I took my foot off the brakes. I thought for sure the car behind me was going to hit me. Pretty sure now this must also be hill hold. If it is from a computer command, that is some seriously bad programming.
 
#49 ·
So that brings back up the hill hold function I believe. Anyone know how it works? Fully mechanical, or computer operated?
I believe it's computer operated mechanical. :D

By that I mean the brakes themselves are completely mechanical (hydraulically activated of course). Only the e-Niro has an electronic parking brake, so that leaves the 4 wheel brakes as the only method of holding the car on a hill. I don't think it's the regen capability that holds it, because I can feel a distinct release when I use it stopped on my driveway. If it was the regen holding it in place, I would not expect to feel any sort of release. Plus, I don't think the HEV or PHEV has strong enough regen to hold the car like many EVs can. I have't experienced a panic stop with the car, so I can't say anything about its behavior under those circumstances. But I would expect every car with emergency braking assist (many have it now) to take a split second before releasing the brakes in case it was a matter of the driver's foot slipping off the pedal. If the car behind did hit you, it would have been their fault for following too close. :p
 
#53 ·
Reviving this thread a bit...

During Aug-Sep I had per ECU a calculated average of 21.5 kWh/100km energy discharged (there is a Cumulative Energy Discharged counter, I took note of the odo meter at the begin and end of the interval).
The long term avg consumption on the car display is about 17 kWh/100km, so I assume the average displayed takes into account the energy going back into the battery with regenerative braking. I can't find a counter on the ECU showing regen energy. There is a similar counter for Cumulative Energy Charged and that one is pretty much in lock step with the discharge counter. So I assume the charge counter is what goes into the battery and is not just the output from external charger. In my setup I can't measure the kWh from the house into the car as I have a simple EVSE installed without any measuring option.

Is my conclusion right that the difference between displayed average and the ECU counter (~4 kWh/100km) shows the regen energy?
 
#55 ·
I'm still getting used to the whole kwh thing. With a battery pack of 8.9 kwh...this would mean you're able to do about 35 miles on just the battery?

I have a 22 mile commute that will be cut to about 20 miles when we move to a new location. New location will have electric charging. So I'm hoping that I can drive to work on the charging from overnight charging at home and drive home for "free" using the charging I receive at work. It will be about 95% free way driving and I probably average around 75 MPH too.
 
#59 ·
I did a range test yesterday. I had to make a 32 mile round trip. About 14 miles were at freeway 60 MPH speeds, with some up and down hill segments. The remainder of the distance at both ends was regular traffic with some traffic lights and again some hills. And my final 1/2 mile climb back to my home up a pretty steep grade. Outdoor temps were around 80F, so A/C was on the entire trip until the last 2 miles of indicated range, when I cracked the window open and tried to get home. Other than this one thing, I did nothing special to extend the range.

End story, I was within a block of my home before the ICE fired. If my home wasn't on the hill it is, I would have made it back with 1 mile of range left. There was only one segment of the freeway portion that had any regen at all, it is was not enough to actually show in increase in range. Of course, the downhill segments did extend the range since it didn't take as much energy to maintain speed downhill. If this trip had been done at non-freeway speeds (impossible without adding a significant number of miles to the trip) I believe I would have made it with range to spare.

So overall, I feel the Niro PHEV is extremely efficient, and can easily exceed its EPA EV range.
 
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