Level 1 PHEV Charging Stops With No Faults - Page 3 - Kia Niro Forum
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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 10-19-2018, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPoli View Post
Well, my wife got the car back Wednesday (it's her daily driver). Writeup from Kia says the duplicated the car stops charging using the supplied EVSE cable. Per Kia engineer's direction they tried with a different EVSE cable with the same result. Again, per engineer's direction, they used a 3rd EVSE cable and it charged fine (they say). So, you'd think they'd say it's a cable problem & switch it out? Wrong! They just sent her home with the original cable & said charge it on M or L.

Got it home and, as expected, it stops charging on H no matter what circuit I try it on. Charging on L for ~ 2.5 hrs seemed to go OK. Trying to decide whether to call Kia directly, or keep bringing it back in to have them confirm it stops charging enough times that I can invoke the Lemon Law and tell them to replace the whole car or take it back and refund full purchase price plus legal fees.

Directly copied from Kia report Boldface is mine):
271 chargine system concern TECHNICIAN SET UP VEHICLE TO CHARGING
USING CABLE THAT VEHICLE SUPPLIED AND AFTER ONE HOUR TECH NOTICE THAT
CHARGING STOPS AND THERE IS WARNING ON CLUSTER SAY INPUT CHARGING
VOLTAGE LOO(HISTORY CODE P0D27)0PEN A TECHLINE CASE(CASE#12898319)AND
TECHLINE ADVICE THAT TRY TO CHARGE VEHICLE WITH OTHER CABLE LEVEL ONE
FROM OTHER VEHICLE.TECH CLEAR DTC AND USE OTHER CABLE LEVEL ONE FROM
OTHER VEHICLE SAME YEAR AND MODULE AND AFTER ONE HOUR VEHICLE STOP
CHARGING AGAIN
AND BATTERY SOC WAS AT 75%,TECH REPORT VEHICLE STATUS
AND ATACHED ALL CURRENT DATA TO THE CASE AFTER STOPS CHARGING AND AND
NORMAL CHARGING BUT TECH LINE REQUEST AN OTHER CABLE LEVEL ONE AND
RETEST, TROUBLE HAPPENS ONLY ON HIGH/FAST CHARGE, TECH TOOK A SECOND
CABLE FROM ANOTHER SAME AS LIKE VEHICLE SAME MODEL AND YEAR BUT VEHICLE
BATTERY REACHES FULL BATTERY CHARGE/100% BEFORE DUPLICATE CONCERN
, TECH
REPORTED VEHICLE STATUS TO TECH LINE AND TECH LINE ADVICE THAT VEHICLE
HAST TO BE DRIVEN TO MAKES THE BATTERY DRAIN AND RETEST VEHICLE ON
MEDIUM CHARGE. NO PROBLEMS FOUND
I would contact corp and ask for a new L1 charging cable.

2018 Niro PHEV LX Silver/charcoal
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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 10-19-2018, 05:59 PM
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i would try and talk with the dealership owner who you bought the PHEV from. They likely have far more pull than you do, and if given the facts and the knowledge of how far you are willing to push it, they will likely just authorize the shop to swap a cable for you as they wouldn't want the hassle you can cause. A diplomatic but very frank talk will take you a long way I have found.

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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 10-19-2018, 06:06 PM Thread Starter
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I may try that with the manager, but I'll have my wife do it since she can be more persuasive and less acerbic than me. Other option is too admit defeat and buy an non-Kia Level 1 EVSE cable. I see several for ~199 that claim to be 16 amp versions, so they should handle the Niro's 12A max rate pretty easily. We have to bring the car down in a week or so to have the front 2 windows tinted that they threw in along with a Homelink mirror (can't believe that's not standard on every car, but especially on the top end model).
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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 10-24-2018, 06:56 PM Thread Starter
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I've been running more diagnostic tests to prove to myself I'm not crazy and this EVSE plus car won't charge at maximum, "H", level.

I confirmed problem still exists on getting it home. Won't charge on H, charges inconsistently at M, and usually only charges reliably at lowest, "L", level with the Kia supplied EVSE cable. Even though the service department duplicated the failure to charge without shutting down at H with my cable and a 2nd cable, but apparently at least once did charge at H with a 3rd cable, they returned the car with the original EVSE cable at seem to think it's "OK".

I did some detailed tests, I'll talk about in a minute, but after confirming problem still exists, I opened up a complaint directly with KIA Corporate Customer Relations, along with the details of my interactions with the service department and a copy of their report showing they could duplicate the problem at their shop, but did nothing.

First, I was wrong about my dedicated 20A jacuzzi circuit. I thought I had it wired with 10 gauge wire, but it's actually 8 gauge solid copper wire. Cost me over a $100 extra at the time, but I didn't want power problems down the line. Anyway, I opened the junction box where this wire run comes through the wall and attached a clamp ammeter on the line. I then ran the jacuzzi, first on low and then oh high jets with bubbles, etc all going. At low it draws 10.3A and at high the maximum it showed was 20.1A, but consistently above 19.8A and the voltage was still ~ 118V with this load. Only twice in ~ 5 years can I remember this tripping that 20A breaker and upon resetting it, it would then run for the rest of at least another 20 minutes on high. So, this line, with nothing else on it should have no problems with a 12A EVSE load.

I disconnected the jacuzzi and plugged a 10 foot 10 gauge extension cord in so I could reach the car in the driveway. Unfortunate that I had to use it, but this is a much heavier gauge wire than in the actual EVSE cable, and an electrical calculator indicates it should drop the voltage less than 0.3% with a 12A load. I set the car to accept maximum charge rate, H, with a 110V source. I then plugged the EVSE into the extension cord and set it to L level before plugging the EVSE into the car. (The EVSE resets to H level every time it's plugged in to a 110-120V source.) Once the car started charging, I read the clamp ammeter for the real current draw through the entire circuit. I then stopped the charging, unplugged the EVSE from the car and reset the EVSE to M level charging. I plugged it back in to the car and once charging started again, I read the ammeter. I then repeated this exercise at EVSE set to H charging level, and this time left it to continue charging after reading the ammeter. Watching it, I saw the car indicator on the top of the dash go from green to red in about 10 minutes into the charging and then the charging stopped and the light went out. As before the car's NAV screen says "Charger Error" when I first start it up after this event. So, for those of you interested, here's the current draw with supplied Level 1 EVSE cable. Your's may deviate, but probably by not more than 0.3A unit-unit and the numbers below are the maximum I saw with the ammeter showing fluctuations of about 0.1 to as much as 0.20 amps below these max values.

L Level = 7.3A
M Level = 9.25A
H Level = 11.55-11.60A

I can't see any reason a circuit capable of supplying 20A continuously for an hour at a time shouldn't be able to handle an 11.6A EVSE draw. This doesn't prove it's the EVSE and not the car having a problem, but it sure says one or the other is not right. I'll see what KIA Corporate Customer Relations says. Hopefully soon. And meanwhile, we'll keep charging at L or M every few days.
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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-18-2018, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPoli View Post
5 day old 2018 PHEV. Problem from 1st night, trying to charge with Level 1 charging cable, charging starts fine at High level, but after 30-90 min Green dash light goes out with only a few miles added. Removing cable and re-inserting restarts charging, but stops again in less than 1 hour.

20 amp 110V circuit being used with no extension cord or other devices pulling current on circuit & voltage reads 117-120V on a meter. Installed Uvo Eco app on phone & after watching charging last night from phone and seeing it had stopped again, I could restart charging from app, but it stopped again at 67%. Set car at Reduced Charging Level (M) in dash & restarted charging. Checking this morning it had stopped charging at 73%, with no error messages & level 1 charger looks normal & app shows car still plugged in & I can restart charging.

Have any of you seen this problem, and was it a charging cable or a car problem? Other than this car seems great after 5 days & ~ 200 miles.

Thanks
Hi mine is doing the exact same. Within the first few days after purchase I called my dealer and was told to simply bring the cord in to the parts department for a new one. Once I got there I was told they do not have them in stock and that I would need to go through their service department to get it validated that the cord was the problem. Which I did next. The tech said it was working but then I found out that he only tried my charger for a short time then switch it to the level two to complete the charge more rapidly. My husband and I met with our service tech when we went out to pick it up (a day and a half later) and he explained that we didn't have it scheduled properly or maybe our garage outlet wasn't the correct voltage. Got home and had the same problem so I started to investigate all possible causes. I have plenty of volts in my garage and even had an electrician come out and verify it. So I tried it in two other garages, and had the same start and stop issue. Then I tried my friends Ford Cmax cord and it charged perfectly to 100% with not problems. I have had a very frustrating time getting Kia to issue a new cord. I have had several calls with customer service, UVO and my tech rep. They still won't issue a replacement until I can have their service department verify that the cord is the problem. I have sent pictures of the non function and functioning charge (with the outside charger), but that is not enough for KIA.. so I am waiting to go back again to insure they test it properly and issue me a new charger. I cannot imagine why they are so reluctant to simply order me a new cord when my car is only a month old and has had this problem since day one. I have spend way too much time and energy on this for a new vehicle that is under warrentee. If they refuse me this next time I will really be upset and for sure never buy a KIA again!
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post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-18-2018, 04:54 PM
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J1772 defines the handshake and the physical plug for Charging. Charging is done within the PHEV and the outside supply provides the electrons used for charging.

On the car side the state of charging ( unplugged, plugged in, charging,venting) is done by dropping the 12v pilot voltage supplied by the outside source to various voltages.

On the outside the device Level1 or LevelI indicates its electrical amperage by Pulse Width Modulating (PWM) the pilot signal at 1000hz frequency.

Now those outside supplies that have a non selectable amperage have instead a fixed PWM say 12A for a Level1. The car will never draw more than the chosen amperage but can draw less if its charging curve dictates. In addition there is a ground fault circuit in the outside supply LevelI or LevelII. A poor or intermittent ground on the outside supply will disconnect the car electrically.
Level II supplies often have selectable amperages to allow for differences in capacity of Home electrical circuits.
The amperage selected is expected to be no more 80% of the breaker the LevelII device is on.
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post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-19-2018, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by kathystevens View Post
Hi mine is doing the exact same. Within the first few days after purchase I called my dealer and was told to simply bring the cord in to the parts department for a new one. Once I got there I was told they do not have them in stock and that I would need to go through their service department to get it validated that the cord was the problem. Which I did next. The tech said it was working but then I found out that he only tried my charger for a short time then switch it to the level two to complete the charge more rapidly. ... So I tried it in two other garages, and had the same start and stop issue. Then I tried my friends Ford Cmax cord and it charged perfectly to 100% with not problems. ... If they refuse me this next time I will really be upset and for sure never buy a KIA again!

I am glad that I have not experienced this problem, and sorry for you and several others on this forum who have had to deal with it. In theory, there might be something about the quality of the electric supply at your home that is causing the L1 charger to balk. But your experience (testing in multiple locations with your Kia-supplied L1 charger and seeing the same problem, testing with a different charger in your home and not seeing a problem) and also the OP's experience (earlier in this thread, he stated that his dealer tried three different L1 chargers and one worked but two didn't) suggest that it's probably a problem with the charger that was provided to you. Even if it turns out that it's something about the quality of the power supply, rather than the charger, it seems to me that it's the manufacturer's responsibility to provide you with a way to diagnose why the charger isn't working so that you can contact your electric utility or an electrician and have the problem corrected.


Some of the things I'd be tempted to do if I was confronted with this situation:
  • Install the UVO Eco app on a cell phone and figure out how to use it to discover the current charging status. If you wind up leaving the car with the dealer again, this will let you discover if they are using an L1 charger or if they've again switched it to an L2 charger. Unfortunately, it won't tell you if they are using the L1 charger that you own or if they've plugged in a different one.
  • Ask the dealer for a loaner, at no charge, and insist on a good one (after all, you just purchased a new car, so they should give you a reasonably new loaner). And if they try to tell you that you need to reduce the charge rate, tell them that the car was advertised to charge at the high L1 rate and you don't plan to return the loaner until they've explained why it's not capable of doing that.
  • Contact Kia directly (one of the many documents in the owners manuals describes how you can do this).
  • If none of the above work, start publicizing your problem. Pretty much every Kia dealer in the country is subject to Google reviews. If you have a Google account, you can post a negative review of your local dealer. Be polite and correct but clear that they dropped the ball and you are having to put up with way too much hassle. After you've successfully published it, let the dealer know you gave them a negative review, and let them know that you'd be willing to amend it if they can resolve the problem. If they're not impressed with this information, make sure that you've conveyed this to both someone in Service and also someone in Sales at your local dealer (the Sales manager is likely to be more concerned about negative reviews than the Service manager). You can probably do the same on multiple other social media outlets, aside from Google (e.g. Facebook, Twitter, etc), whatever you are already familiar with.
  • Next stop is your state Attorney General. Be sure to correspond in writing and keep a copy, in case you eventually get to the point that you want to avail yourself of whatever Lemon Law protections your state affords. But lets hope it doesn't come to that. Still, I have in mind that if Kia Corporate and your local dealer began to contemplate that they might have to back out a sale because they gave you a defective L1 charger, they'd probably discover a whole new level of motivation to fix that particular problem in short order.
  • You can also post complaints at www.nhtsa.gov. Just don't necessarily expect anyone to pay attention to them, aside perhaps, from Kia Corporate.


A second strategy you might consider, depending on where you live, is to take it to a different Kia dealer for service. What you are probably confronted with is a Kia Service organization that has limited training in their ranks on the Niro's charging system. A larger dealer maybe has one or more technicians that have had more training and might be in a better position to either diagnose it or else enlist the manufacturer to diagnose it and solve it. When the technician doesn't have the knowledge to solve the problem, the service manager is usually going to look for the path of least resistance for solving the problem; some service managers might perceive that the path of least resistance is to try to tell you that it's a problem with your house wiring or that if you can make it work on the slowest charging rate, then there's nothing for them to fix, but that's BS because that's not the way that the car was sold to you, and if they try to do that, I would be very clear in expressing to them that it's not an acceptable solution.


Finally, don't necessarily hate Kia just because you hit this particular speed bump. If your dealer can't solve the problem, maybe give Kia Corporate a chance to weigh in before you decide to hate them.



I hope one of these ideas helps.

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post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-19-2018, 02:46 PM
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Thanks, I hope they will resolve this without me having to go any further. Great suggestions.
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