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Level 2 charger questions

16K views 59 replies 15 participants last post by  javiera781 
#1 ·
Hey guys I am a new Niro PHEV owner and I have a question for you. Does the PHEV come standard with a 3.3Kwh onboard charger?
I want to buy a Level 2 charger. If it is indeed a 3.3kwh onboard charger then I am thinking 3300 watts/240 volts = 13.75 amps maximum charging available at 240 volts. If so does it make sense to buy a Level 2 charger rated at more that 16 amps?
What type of Level 2 charger did you guys go with?. I am new to this and hope to learn from your experience
 
#2 ·
I looked at a Level 2 charger for my PHEV, but decided against it as I normally charge overnight and so it doesn't really matter that it takes 7 hours to charge. Having said that, a 16A Level 2 charger is more than enough, but the question is future proofing. Other than cost there's no downside to getting a higher capacity Level 2 charger and it could come in handy if you end up purchasing a BEV Niro or similar. The e-Niro will charge in 9.5h at 220V, which is probably OK for most home charging situations.

I guess as with most of these questions, YMMV. :D
 
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#4 ·
I am using a level 1 now but I have a 6-20P (20A) plug ready for the niro 16A max l2 capability if I decide it's worth it in the future.

I would consider how likely you are to have a greater than 20a outlet in the future to plug into.
 
#5 ·
another perspective

A L2 16a charger will charge ~10miles per hour. Thus 10hrs overnight charges ~100 miles. If your daily mileage is less than 100miles, you will rarely need more than a 16a charger for home charging even with an EV.

On a trip you can use the EVs fast dc charger.
 
#6 · (Edited)
You may be missing the point of a level 2 charger. It charges twice as fast at the SAME amperage. Many sources say that level 2 charging is also better for the battery.

In actual practice, I've found that a level 2 charger charges at almost 3 times as fast as a level 1 charger. I can't explain why. When I visit my daughter, I often use a level 2 and it really adds to the utility of the car. I thought over night was enough but return home thinking I need a level 2.

Something I hadn't thought of before buying the plug in is that it should be plugged in..... and fully charged occasionally. But, why wouldn't you?

In direct answer, however, the EV is the future of individual transportation. When I install a charger, it will be the biggest I and my electrical system can afford.
 
#7 ·
You may be missing the point of a level 2 charger. It charges twice as fast at the SAME amperage. Many sources say that level 2 charging is also better for the battery.

In actual practice, I've found that a level 2 charger charges at almost 3 times as fast as a level 1 charger. I can't explain why.
The amperage is the same, but the voltage is double and so the power delivered is also double (13A x 120 V = 1560W vs 13.6A x 240V = 3264W). Plus there is an added efficiency to higher rate charging because the charger in the car has to convert the incoming AC to the ~360VDC required by the battery. Converting from 220VAC to 360VDC is more efficient than going from 120VAC.

I'm not convinced there's an appreciable difference between Level 1 and Level 2 when it comes to the health of the battery. Charging at a lower rate reduces battery heating, which in turns reduces the likelihood of chemical changes inside. Plus, the on-board charge controller is designed to maximize the life of the battery regardless of which charger the car is plugged into.
 
#8 ·
Since the PHEV come standard with a 3.3Kwh onboard charger, i use a 240v 30amp home charger. I have never used my personnal 120v charger that came with the car. 2.5h time of charge at home and it's full.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I ordered the Clipper Creek LCS-20 Model Level 2 charger. Thank you all for the input.

For us I believe the purchase will eventually pay for itself. Each week day I have to make 2 separated 30 mile round trips. The trips are 6 hours apart. this will allow me to drive on electric both times.

We traded in a 2008 Toyota Prius on the Plug in Niro. I was the only one in the family who really drove the Prius. With our Niro it seems it is the car of choice for the family. It is almost impossible to keep it plugged in during the day for more than a couple of hours.
 
#13 ·
I wanted to add our electric rates are $09 per Kwh so it cost us about $.54 per complete charge. I have been averaging 30 miles on a complete charge so the $.54 for my trip is a good savings over gas in our area which has been staying just under $3.00 per gallon
 
#15 ·
I think the Niro battery management system only lets the battery run down to 6.3 kwh. It maintains a reserve to run start the engine and run accessories on the vehicle - I don't believe it ever lets the battery approach a 0 state of charge. So far when I plug in after having driven the vehicle and exhausting the battery charge in EV mode the kwh monitoring for the outlet the charger is plugged in to says 6 to 6.3 kwh to bring it to full charge from 0.
 
#16 ·
I've measured 7.9Kwhrs for a full recharge. Full battery capacity spec is 8.9Kent's, so yes a reserve is maintained.

EPA spec says 32Kwhrs /100miles. 26miles range full tank gives 32 x 26 /100 = 8.3 kwhrs. FWIW.

Thus 6 kwhrs for full recharge seems too low.

I'll measure it again.
 
#18 ·
Thank you for you data. My device to measure Kwh is cheap and old I can't vouch for its accuracy plus I've only measured 2 of our charges. I would trust your data more than mine. The cost for 30 miles is still very low for around 8 kwh - $.72 as you suggest.

I think Kia hit a home run with the Plug In Niro. We couldn't be more pleased with this vehicle after a week. I still get a little excited driving it. I had no idea a Hybrid Plug in could be so comfortable and fun to drive.
 
#20 ·
Thank you for you data. My device to measure Kwh is cheap and old I can't vouch for its accuracy plus I've only measured 2 of our charges. I would trust your data more than mine. The cost for 30 miles is still very low for around 8 kwh - $.72 as you suggest.

I think Kia hit a home run with the Plug In Niro. We couldn't be more pleased with this vehicle after a week. I still get a little excited driving it. I had no idea a Hybrid Plug in could be so comfortable and fun to drive.
I agree! I too am happy. However, I would prefer 100HP EV and 60HP ICE. Currently we have 60HP EV and 100HP ICE.
 
#27 ·
As with many things in life, the answer is, it depends. :D

  • Short trips around town with lots of stop and go? EV mode FTW
  • Long stretches on the highway? Kick it to HEV mode and save the EV range for when you get off the freeway
  • Need to merge in traffic or pass that clown going 45 in the left lane? Sport mode will give you more aggressive throttle response and kick the ICE in earlier to give you the most zip.

Of course, you could just do what I assume most of us do and just leave it alone and let the computer figure it out. I've only used Sport mode a couple of times and in general don't fiddle with the EV/HEV button.

Sport mode doesn't actually give you more power, it just changes the throttle response and in some cases runs the ICE at idle to allow a more aggressive takeoff. You can achieve the same effect by just flooring the throttle. In normal mode the throttle is pretty non-linear and requires you to really mash it to get any serious acceleration.

I've tried gaming the EV range by putting it in HEV mode on the highway but it's tough to get it exactly right and several times I found myself at my destination with miles still left on the battery. Kia's done a good job of wringing the most efficiency out of the PHEV and it's pretty hard to beat the computer at its own game.
 
#29 ·
Thank you all for the replies and suggestions. We have received and installed a Clipper Creek LCS-20 Level 2 charging station. I am an electrician so I installed it myself. I went ahead and ordered the LPS-20 which is the hardwired model. I installed it in the garage and I used all weathertite fittings and boxes to completely eliminate any concerns with water inadvertently being squirted around- (young kids). Used 20 amp double pole breaker as Clipper Creek recommends and is 25% more than the 16 amps for the unit as required by code. It is a dedicated circuit as required for a Level 2 chargers. Pulled permits and had it inspected. Unit is UL listed which is a must for units installed in a residential dwelling.

Very pleased with the results it has cut charging time down from 7 to 8 hours to just under 2.5. This is going to be the ticket to eliminate gas usage for our family. Quite pleased with the quality and the performance of the Clipper Creek unit.
 
#30 ·
Very pleased with the results it has cut charging time down from 7 to 8 hours to just under 2.5.
That is a BIG difference of charge time.. Still cannot understand why PHEV owners still uses the L1 charger at home!:confused:
 
#31 · (Edited)
I think it's great that we Niro PHEV owners have the option of installing an L2 charger. I did consider it but determined given my driving habits, it would be an unnecessary expenditure. I get on average three days of driving from a complete charge. I charge during the evening after I know I'm home for the night. I did recently forget to charge my car one evening for the first time in 10 months of ownership. I realized it when I was leaving for work so even then an L2 charger wouldn't have made any difference. To date I've only used two tank fulls of gas. In my rural community, gas is currently priced at $3.79/gal. It's not so much about how we charge our PHEV, but how we avoid the gas pump that really matters. And I'm very happy about that.
 
#38 · (Edited)
In the interest of playing it forward I was going to post my time and cost for this Level 2 project and reasoning for doing it in case it would help someone.

It can be like a buffet - take what you want and leave what you don't care for.

Level 2 charger -LCS-20 Clipper Creek cost = $400 (shipping, taxes included)
Cheapest unit they made that will supply the Level 2 charge for the Niro, UL listed

Wiring,electrical conduit, boxes etc - all weathertite = $65
100" run of wire from service panel to Level 2 charger

20 amp double pole breaker =$8
Square D HOM

Permitting process =$45

8 hours of my own time = free

Total cost of project =$518 and 8 hours of my time

Expected return on Investment - why I did project?
We have to make two 30 mile round trips each day with 4 to 6 hours between trips. The 1st trip was being taken care of just fine by overnight charging with the supplied Level 1 charger. It was the 2nd round trip and the other small errands that I wasn't getting the benefit of the EV portion of the vehicle because of the lack of time to charge.
Our Kwh rate is .09 kwh and our current gas prices are knocking on the door of $3 per gallon.
8kw x$.09 = $.72 for 30 miles / gas @ $3 gallon is maybe $1.72 for 30 miles
Savings =$1 per day. So for one year a savings of $365 I am only figuring in the second 30 mile round trip as the 1st one was covered okay with the Level 1 charger. I am including a $1 a day for Sat and Sun because of the constant running around the car gets these two days. So it will take about 1.5 years to recover the cost of the equipment. If I had to hire another electrician I would estimate they would have charged between $500 to $1000 dollars to do job. $750 would be middle ground and would add 2 additional years to have the job pay for itself.
From an economic standpoint I couldn't have justified the cost if we made only one 30 mile round trip per day. If I had to hire an electrician I would have had 2nd thoughts about doing project.

Hopefully our information will help someone else to make a decision for their family on a project like this. Again thank you all for sharing your experiences and charger recommendations- we took them all into consideration before doing this job.
 
#41 ·
To L2 charge or not to L2 charge?

There is no one size fits all answer. For some, L2 chargers make sense. For others, L1 charging is more than sufficient. For yet others, the flexibility is more important than the money spent.

We did not get a L2 charger for the Niro. We're fine with charging at L1 speeds overnight. We're using our dryer outlet to get L2 charging on our Chevy Volt, which makes sense for us since it's got a bigger battery. It cost me ~$30 in parts to move the outlet from our laundry room to the garage on the other side of the wall, and to make a locking adapter to hook the EVSE into the dryer outlet. Many before me have used the Volt EVSE to plug into 240 volt outlets, so I felt comfortable doing so. We could, if we needed to, plug the Niro into the Volt EVSE to get L2 charging during the day if we need a quicker charge, but have only done it once. It only makes sense on the weekends, due to out Time Of Use electric plan.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the Niro EVSE can handle 240 volts?
 
#42 · (Edited)
There is no one size fits all answer. For some, L2 chargers make sense. For others, L1 charging is more than sufficient. For yet others, the flexibility is more important than the money spent.

We did not get a L2 charger for the Niro. We're fine with charging at L1 speeds overnight. We're using our dryer outlet to get L2 charging on our Chevy Volt, which makes sense for us since it's got a bigger battery. It cost me ~$30 in parts to move the outlet from our laundry room to the garage on the other side of the wall, and to make a locking adapter to hook the EVSE into the dryer outlet. Many before me have used the Volt EVSE to plug into 240 volt outlets, so I felt comfortable doing so. We could, if we needed to, plug the Niro into the Volt EVSE to get L2 charging during the day if we need a quicker charge, but have only done it once. It only makes sense on the weekends, due to out Time Of Use electric plan.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the Niro EVSE can handle 240 volts?
Good question. I've wondered that too.

I assume you mean the stock 120v evse? Connect 120v neutral and hot to 240v hot and hot?

Please try it and let us know how it goes.
 
#44 ·
The Chevy Volt EVSE also comes with a 120v plug, but people have opened them up and discovered the parts are designed to handle 240v. (https://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?218442-2016-Volt-120v-EVSE-is-L1-L2-Conversion-Capable)

I guess the theory is that they can use the same EVSE in Europe- just put different plugs and labels. In any case, we, along with many other people, have plugged our Chevy Volt EVSEs into a 240v outlet without any problems. I was wondering if it's the same story with the Niro EVSE.
 
#46 ·
#48 ·
#49 ·
Kia may suggest that, but I think it's way overkill. I could see a suggestion of a charger in the 20-25 amp range, but doubling the required capacity is not necessary. If I use my daughter's 40 amp $600 charger (EVSE), it makes no difference to my car. Charge rate is the same, and the charger is loafing. Will it increase the life span of the EVSE? I seriously doubt it. The 16 amp charger I bought was under $200, so even if it lasted a slightly shorter period of time than a larger charger, I could buy three of them for the same cost as the JuiceBox my daughter has.

When I switch to a full EV in a few years, I'll get a higher capacity EVSE anyway, so why not save several hundred in the meantime? Especially since I'll likely be living in a different home by then and have to add new wiring. It would have been especially wasteful for me to have purchased a 32 or 40 amp charger for this Niro, and then later buy an EV that could support a 50 or 60 amp EVSE. I might even be able to sell my current 16 amp EVSE to someone in a few years, save them some money and reduce my overall cost even more.

There are some things that might be worthwhile to oversize, but I don't think an EVSE is one of them.
 
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#51 ·
I fear the $70 offer is a scam but there are a lot of $150-200 offers on Amazon and eBay.

https://www.amazon.com/Duosida-Electric-Vehicle-Portable-Charger/dp/B07BGGVD9V/ref=sr_1_15?crid=23V4ULU294AQ9&keywords=eve+l2+charger&qid=1561547052&s=gateway&sprefix=Ev+l2%2Caps%2C420&sr=8-15
 
#54 · (Edited)
true, but I would have to upgrade my 240v 30a socket to use it. Also, I don't think I will ever get a BEV. PHEV works really, really well for me. PHEV is much cheaper and range fill ups take just 5 minutes. Backwords compatibility to existing infrastructure is a concept that works well for many new product categories.

Having a PHEV is like having both a BEV and gas car in my garage.
 
#55 ·
Just ordered the cheap one, we'll see. My suspicion is that there is one design and only the male plug changes. If so, I'll make up an adapter for my other aftermarket 120v charger and have 2 that do either 120 or 240. I don't dare try that with the one that came with the car, but it's tempting.
 
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