Plugging in your devices? - Page 2 - Kia Niro Forum
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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by yticolev View Post
Oh, just thought of one more way for anyone to confirm power draw at a stop. I've posted this before on other threads. At a stop with your foot on the brakes, shift into neutral. And back into drive. You will feel the car's attitude change with each shift. Proof positive of energy consumption!
I've tried this and never felt any change as long as my foot was on the brake. I'd have to see some hard data to back this up, as it doesn't seem to make any sense for the programmers to leave any motive power draw with the brake pedal pressed. That would seem to be an easy place to pick up a little extra range.

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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 09:32 AM
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Yup, I didn’t think it made sense either. Surprised you can’t feel the attitude shift. Completely repeatable for me.

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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 05:58 PM
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Yup, I didnít think it made sense either. Surprised you canít feel the attitude shift. Completely repeatable for me.
I wonder if there's any difference between the HEV and the PHEV in this regard? Again, it wouldn't make sense, but engineers sometimes do things that only make sense to themselves.

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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 06:20 PM
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Could be. Does your PHEV start moving the same moment your foot comes off the brake? Once it starts moving can you feather the brake, hear is squeak lightly, and the car is still moving?

It seems to me that programming could stop unnecessary power draw at a stop, but besides someone's actual measurement, there are too many other clues for me to think they have done that. Easier to just delete (or give owner the option) the creep function altogether.

In a standard ICE car with a standard automatic, there is certainly a higher load on the engine at full stop in drive versus neutral. Those cars are not efficient enough to be worth shifting into neutral - any efficiency gain is minimal. The same could be said about our cars perhaps (more so for the HEV than the PHEV), some small power drain measured in dozens to hundreds of watts has a very small effect on total efficiency (mpg). But it is not zero, and that has an emotional impact to me. For the same reason, I pay attention to headlight use, and only use it when there is a real safety impact to myself or others. No running lights.

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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 09:46 PM
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Having no running lights is a safety impact!
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 07:32 AM
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Along with what, 3/4 of all cars in broad daylight? Driving in general is a safety hazard.

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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yticolev View Post
Could be. Does your PHEV start moving the same moment your foot comes off the brake? Once it starts moving can you feather the brake, hear is squeak lightly, and the car is still moving?

It seems to me that programming could stop unnecessary power draw at a stop, but besides someone's actual measurement, there are too many other clues for me to think they have done that. Easier to just delete (or give owner the option) the creep function altogether.

In a standard ICE car with a standard automatic, there is certainly a higher load on the engine at full stop in drive versus neutral. Those cars are not efficient enough to be worth shifting into neutral - any efficiency gain is minimal. The same could be said about our cars perhaps (more so for the HEV than the PHEV), some small power drain measured in dozens to hundreds of watts has a very small effect on total efficiency (mpg). But it is not zero, and that has an emotional impact to me. For the same reason, I pay attention to headlight use, and only use it when there is a real safety impact to myself or others. No running lights.

It feels like my question is getting skirted by subjective observations.



Without putting an actual power measurement tool between the battery and the electric motor, I don't know how you would know. It is like the question of breaking by wire vs mechanical as all these systems are tied together. Your comment about when you take your foot off the brake the car moves would have any relevance to how the electric motor is working when the brake peddle is pressed I find interesting but puzzling. There is clearly a sensor on the brake pedal. it knows how far and how fast you are pressing. The brake pedal must have some sensor on it or inside the system or else how would regeneration work at all and know when to apply mechanical breaks vs using the motor to generate. So logically if it knows you are pressing hard enough on the brake pedal as to stop, and a logical sensor on the wheels to say they are not rotating, why could there not be logic in the circuit to stop sending power to the electric motor? Why would the motor need any power at all? As you take your foot off the break, that sensor can just as easily detect that your foot is coming off and open back up the circuit to send the power back to the electric motor. If that is the case, shifting into Neutral might be achieving nothing. Why are you thinking that Neutral must disconnect the power from the electric motor? Does the car not break in Neutral? does it regen the battery? I don't know the logic or intent inside the car but I wonder.

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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 11:17 AM
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Does the car not break in Neutral? does it regen the battery? I don't know the logic or intent inside the car but I wonder.
I think we can answer this part in the negative. If the transmission is in neutral then the electric motor is disconnected from the wheels and there is no regen possible. The only braking in this case would be the friction brakes. You can see evidence of this by shifting into neutral while coasting, the ECO meter will return to '0' neither driving nor regenerating.

That's one of the interesting features of the Niro compared to other hybrids. Since it uses a conventional DSG transmission rather than a CVT or direct drive arrangement it is possible to have a true neutral in which the car is free to roll without turning the electric motor.

As to the question of whether there is torque applied from the electric motor when stopped with the brakes on I dunno. I don't notice the lurch that @yticolev talks about when shifting between D and N while stopped but that's obviously just anecdotal, we can't draw any conclusions from that. Logically it seems silly to apply power to the electric motor while stopped. First it's wasteful, second the motor is stalled in this case and generally putting power to a stalled electric motor is a bad thing.

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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 03:12 PM
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Could be. Does your PHEV start moving the same moment your foot comes off the brake?
No, there's usually a very slight pause. Same if I brake to a stop, then release the brake pedal until it's barely remaining still. I don't feel any motive force trying to move the car until I completely release the pedal.

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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 05:59 PM
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No, there's usually a very slight pause. Same if I brake to a stop, then release the brake pedal until it's barely remaining still. I don't feel any motive force trying to move the car until I completely release the pedal.
Unfortunately, this can get confusing with the hill stop feature. A heavy press on the brakes at a stop engages hill stop and there is a delay before the car starts moving. A light press on the brakes (the easy way to do this is full stop, let go until car moves, and then engage brakes lightly) and the car will move immediately after releasing brake. After this condition is met, a light press on the brake after initially moving will have the creep trying to overcome the physical brakes.

I've done this perhaps thousands of times at stoplights and stop signs in traffic. Initially I was doing it just to figure out car behavior. But now that I know what it is doing, I just observe expected behavior now.

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