2018 Kia Niro PHEV - Kia Niro Forum
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
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2018 Kia Niro PHEV

Are most new Niro buyers going with the PHEV model as opposed to Niro HEV? Id like to trade my 2017 EX Niro for the 2018 Niro PHEV but right now Im concerned about the accessibility of charging stations. Im renting apartment and it would be very difficult to charge Niro- I no longer have a garage so Im pretty limited as to purchasing a PHEV vehicle. I noticed all my local Walmarts have reserved spaces for charging but it would take too many hours to hang out at WalMart... UGH! 😩🙄😡. Anyone know how many hrs needed for empty-to-full charge?
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 09:57 PM
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Without an easy way to charge I don't see why you'd trade in your HEV. I have a 240V outlet in my garage and it takes about 2.5 hrs to fill it and more like 8 or 9 at 110V. That only gives me 26-30 miles of range on full EV so I am plugging in every night and between trips on the weekend. There are apps like PlugShare to show you where to plug in but I can't imagine that would be convenient for you even if you found one close by.

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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jpear View Post
Are most new Niro buyers going with the PHEV model as opposed to Niro HEV? I’d like to trade my 2017 EX Niro for the 2018 Niro PHEV but right now I’m concerned about the accessibility of charging stations. I’m renting apartment and it would be very difficult to charge Niro—- I no longer have a garage so I’m pretty limited as to purchasing a PHEV vehicle. I noticed all my local Walmarts have reserved spaces for charging but it would take too many hours to hang out at WalMart... UGH! ������. Anyone know how many hrs needed for empty-to-full charge?
6.5 hrs at 120v 12A

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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 08:39 AM
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PHEV are in high demand and KIA has limited production. The concept with a PHEV is that your house is your gas station. You fill the battery each night and yes 240v is better for the battery and takes less time. If your round trip journey is less than 25 miles your home is the only gas station you need. If your take a long trip or exceed 25 miles then you will drive the excess miles as a pure Hybrid.
Charging stations make no sense since for every 2.5 hours spent recharging you only get another 25 miles. If you can't charge at home then the value of the PHEV is diminished. Even with the $4500 tax credit a regular hybrid is the better choice if you can't charge at home. If you can charge at home you easily can have a gas avoidance windfall of $1500 per year and coupled with the $4500 tax refund it is the better bargain compared to a pure hybrid. Over 4 years that's equivalent to $10,000 off the MSRP.
As regards home chargers Level2 they are little more than a relay with a simple PWM circuit and a few comparators. They are way over priced. expect prices to halve or more ...... maybe down to $50 in a year or two.
Reminds me of HDMI cables that are worth $5 being sold with new TV's for $30.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 02:19 PM
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I purchased the PHEV because I average 8 miles per day for my commute to work. I charge my battery at home no more than twice per week. The PHEV is a great fit for us but if we had significantly different circumstances, I would have purchased the HEV instead.
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 03:28 PM
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My 2018 PHEV Niro is my second PHEV, traded in my 2013 Cmax Energi. Since I already had the Level 2 station in my house, and a solar electric roof, I was committed to another PHEV. With Federal $4500 tax credit, state $1500 rebate and power company $450 credit, and getting California HOV stickers good until 2022, the PHEV over hybrid made complete sense even I only used it as a hybrid (which is my practice when driving trips away from home). I would never charge at a pay-EV station, or take the cars' 110v line to use in a hotel. The only time I charged away from my own garage in the 5 years with the Ford was a client I was working at for several days that offered free charging for EV cars at their office.

BTW, having learned about LiOn battery degradation in the Ford, I would recommend you do not constantly charge back up multiple times a day and attempt to drive this as an EV car. If you charge while the battery is still hot from discharging as driven, you will heat it further during charging. Heat is the enemy of LiOn battery life. Both the Niro and Ford have air-cooled drive batteries, not liquid cooled like pure EV cars, so they will degrade over time - you will find the "10-year/100,000 mile" EV battery warranty does not state how low a capacity level warrants a replacement. After 5 years my Ford battery capacity had fallen from 5.2 kwh available for EV driving to around 3.6, which translates in estimated EV miles from 24 when new to 15 when traded (and that depends on how heavy your foot and demand is - 16 miles at 35 MPH, 10 miles at 65 MPH). Ford would never agree this loss is a warranty defect, they just reiterate LiOn batteries will lose capacity over time, normal wear and tear. What is abnormal - they will never state. Only Mitsubishi sates: "The traction battery on the Outlander PHEV comes with a warranty of 8 Years / 100,000 miles. This includes a guarantee that if the traction battery capacity falls below 70% in the first 8 years/100,000 miles a free repair or replacement will be provided."
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-10-2018, 12:17 AM
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Regarding whether or not it makes sense if you are in an apartment... Depends on the state you are in. For example, in Oregon there is a law where you can make the apartment owner install an electric charger for you. Problem solved. You can plug in every night.

I recently purchased the Kia Niro PHEV. I have a Nissan Leaf (2012) and Spark EV (2014) as well. I'd say Kia is doing the electric thing right... However, if you are really interested in going electric and you already have the Niro. It's a really small upgrade to go to the PHEV. You may just want to wait for the full BEV with 250 mile electric range. That will be cool. I just ran out of patience. The Hyundai Kona BEV will be basically the same vehicle. Same range. Probably here sooner.

I am interested in driving the car as an EV mostly. So, I'm concerned about long term degredation. I assumed it had to have good battery chemistry since it is newer and Nissan learned that lesson in 2013. You would think the Koreans would know this stuff... They make most of the batteries.

Any suggestions for tools to more accurately read the state of charge vs total capacity?
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-10-2018, 10:11 AM
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Personally I think the Niro EV is much better looking than the Kona. C pillar treatment, and general proportions. The Kona has very cramped rear seats compared with the Niro. I haven't seen any specific aero specs on either one, but pretty sure that based on dimensions, the Niro will be a good bit better, leading to longer range despite a small weight penalty.

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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-10-2018, 07:24 PM
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Something else to keep in mind is that some of the public chargers are more expensive than running your PHEV on gas.

Gas near me costs about $3.50/gallon, and I average 47mpg in hybrid mode. This comes to about $0.07/mile.

I get about 30 miles of EV driving from a full charge until the car switches to hybrid mode. A few samples:

$0.09/kwh (my home electric rate midnight to 6AM): $0.01/mile
$0.15/kwh (the rate on the Chargepoint chargers at work): $0.02/mile
$0.28/kwh (the summer "normal" electric rate at home): $0.05/mile
$0.53/kwh (the summer "peak" rate at home): $0.09/mile
$0.59/kwh (the rate charged at Blink chargers here): $0.10/mile


So on the two bold ones, the EV charging is actually costing more than gas. If your gas prices are lower than $3.50/gallon or you do a lot of full-speed freeway driving (which shortens the EV range), the break-even point may move down even further.

I do about 45 miles round trip commuting and charge at both ends, with the timer set to only charge at home for the six hours that my rates are "super off peak". It means if I run other errands after work and fully discharge the battery it doesn't have time to completely recharge during those six hours, but it has enough time to get me a full drive to work, and it's more sensible to finish the charge there for $0.15/kwh than it is to do the remaining part of my charge at home for $0.28/kwh. Of course we're also talking about pennies here, and I doubt it ends up being that significant even over the life of the car compared to taxes+tags, tires, insurance, etc. - it's such an efficient car to start out with that the energy costs end up not being the lions share of the cost of ownership.

As for charging, I've found from zero miles remaining it's around 7.5 hours to fully charge on the 120v charger that came with the car (set to full speed), and maybe 2:40 on the Chargepoint Level 2 one at work.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 09-10-2018, 09:26 PM
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Something else to keep in mind is that some of the public chargers are more expensive than running your PHEV on gas.

Gas near me costs about $3.50/gallon, and I average 47mpg in hybrid mode. This comes to about $0.07/mile.

I get about 30 miles of EV driving from a full charge until the car switches to hybrid mode. A few samples:

$0.09/kwh (my home electric rate midnight to 6AM): $0.01/mile
$0.15/kwh (the rate on the Chargepoint chargers at work): $0.02/mile
$0.28/kwh (the summer "normal" electric rate at home): $0.05/mile
$0.53/kwh (the summer "peak" rate at home): $0.09/mile
$0.59/kwh (the rate charged at Blink chargers here): $0.10/mile


So on the two bold ones, the EV charging is actually costing more than gas. If your gas prices are lower than $3.50/gallon or you do a lot of full-speed freeway driving (which shortens the EV range), the break-even point may move down even further.

I do about 45 miles round trip commuting and charge at both ends, with the timer set to only charge at home for the six hours that my rates are "super off peak". It means if I run other errands after work and fully discharge the battery it doesn't have time to completely recharge during those six hours, but it has enough time to get me a full drive to work, and it's more sensible to finish the charge there for $0.15/kwh than it is to do the remaining part of my charge at home for $0.28/kwh. Of course we're also talking about pennies here, and I doubt it ends up being that significant even over the life of the car compared to taxes+tags, tires, insurance, etc. - it's such an efficient car to start out with that the energy costs end up not being the lions share of the cost of ownership.

As for charging, I've found from zero miles remaining it's around 7.5 hours to fully charge on the 120v charger that came with the car (set to full speed), and maybe 2:40 on the Chargepoint Level 2 one at work.
your calculations seem to assume 7~9miles/kwhr. I think the correct number 3~4 miles / kwhr . (26~30miles/ 8Kwhr = 3~4miles/kwhr )

thus $0.09 / kwhr = 0.02~0.03 per mile
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