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After taking 4 months off and waiting for the Niro pure EV to be available, I'm back in the hunt. :nerd: anticipating making a purchase in Sept.

Today I drove a PHEV EX Prem & a EV EX Prem. As expected the EV acceleration was definitely better than the PHEV, but when shifting to Sport in the PHEV, I felt that the PHEV it was no slouch and not that far off from the EV. The PHEV ride comfort and noise level on its 206/60R16 Michelin Energy Saver A/S tires was much, much smoother & quieter than the EV on its P215/55R17 Michelin Primacy MX tires (similar to that of the PHEV Touring on 18" 245 series Primacy MX) -- hard to believe how much better the 16 inchers are! Besides the acceleration, the only thing I liked better about the EV was the shifter and the larger center console.

When I do the math, even with the reduced sales tax and greater Fed Tax Credit, the PHEV comes in about $4,600 less. Since I drive only about 7,000 / yr, I wouldn't come close to recovering the cost differential in 10 year unless the gasoline takes a huge jump.

So even though the EV's lack of moving parts / maintenance is a draw, I'm definitely scratching the pure EV and going for a hybrid - HEV or PHEV. And I'm definitely leaning toward PHEV since most of our daily drives are 15-30 miles. I simply don't need the range of a pure EV; if I want to go 200+ miles, I'll probably take my Outback as it still is more comfy than the Niro. My only hesitance on the PHEV is that is seems somewhat more complex than the HEV and perhaps more problematic.

So, my final question for those in the know here is do any of you who have a PHEV wish you had gotten a HEV instead? If yes, why.
 

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The EV has a 0-60 time of 7 seconds, the PHEV 9 seconds. Not close. All you are feeling with Sport mode is a more sensitive throttle, not more power. The PHEV has similar times to the HEV even though it weighs more. Car and Driver says that the difference is not noticed in normal driving.
 

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I was coming from a Volt so the HEV wasn't even an option for me, it HAD to have a plug so that left me with the PHEV or the BEV. I had very similar observations between the PHEV and the BEV versions. The console in the BEV is much nicer with the larger cup holders and rotary dial shifter. However like you, I did the math on the PHEV and BEV versions and it was just going to be way over my budget. I'm leasing the PHEV EX Premium for $350/mo. The BEV would have been $200 more per month. I don't buy more than $20 in gas per month in my PHEV, so even factoring in gas and maintenance, the BEV still would have cost me significantly more. Maybe after 10 years or so I would have broke even and started going into the black, but honestly I may not even have the PHEV for 10 years so I pulled the trigger on the PHEV and haven't looked back. You'll love it.
 

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After taking 4 months off and waiting for the Niro pure EV to be available, I'm back in the hunt. :nerd: anticipating making a purchase in Sept.

Today I drove a PHEV EX Prem & a EV EX Prem. As expected the EV acceleration was definitely better than the PHEV, but when shifting to Sport in the PHEV, I felt that the PHEV it was no slouch and not that far off from the EV. The PHEV ride comfort and noise level on its 206/60R16 Michelin Energy Saver A/S tires was much, much smoother & quieter than the EV on its P215/55R17 Michelin Primacy MX tires (similar to that of the PHEV Touring on 18" 245 series Primacy MX) -- hard to believe how much better the 16 inchers are! Besides the acceleration, the only thing I liked better about the EV was the shifter and the larger center console.

When I do the math, even with the reduced sales tax and greater Fed Tax Credit, the PHEV comes in about $4,600 less. Since I drive only about 7,000 / yr, I wouldn't come close to recovering the cost differential in 10 year unless the gasoline takes a huge jump.

So even though the EV's lack of moving parts / maintenance is a draw, I'm definitely scratching the pure EV and going for a hybrid - HEV or PHEV. And I'm definitely leaning toward PHEV since most of our daily drives are 15-30 miles. I simply don't need the range of a pure EV; if I want to go 200+ miles, I'll probably take my Outback as it still is more comfy than the Niro. My only hesitance on the PHEV is that is seems somewhat more complex than the HEV and perhaps more problematic.

So, my final question for those in the know here is do any of you who have a PHEV wish you had gotten a HEV instead? If yes, why.
the prev is like having a gas car and ev in one.
 

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The EV has a 0-60 time of 7 seconds, the PHEV 9 seconds. Not close. All you are feeling with Sport mode is a more sensitive throttle, not more power. The PHEV has similar times to the HEV even though it weighs more. Car and Driver says that the difference is not noticed in normal driving.
The PHEV does have a larger electric motor that produces I believe 13 or 14 more HP than the electric motor in the HEV, but like you said, since the PHEV weighs more, that extra 13 HP is probably negated by the added weight.
 

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We have a 36 mile round trip we make twice a day. The two trips are 6 hours apart. With a level 2 charger the Niro PHEV was made to order for this situation.

Since it also gets great gas mileage I have no range anxiety if it switches over to gas. For us the ability to now decide if we want to use gas or not was a consideration in our decision. With our electric rates it cost us about $.65 for a full charge which gets us >30 mile on electric. It is a wonderful feeling to know in our normal commutes running on gas is a choice we get to make based on economics. If gas is higher than $1.30 a gallon we won't buy it. For our normal commutes the gas companies would have to lower their price to <$1.30 to compete for our business.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks Johnxyz:
You get gas for $1.80 in KY? Amazing!. It's $3.59 here in Seattle for Shell or Chevron.
Oh, but at Costco, if you want to drive 15 miles and wait in line 10-15 minutes to fuel up, you can get it for $2.89.
 

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The PHEV does have a larger electric motor that produces I believe 13 or 14 more HP than the electric motor in the HEV, but like you said, since the PHEV weighs more, that extra 13 HP is probably negated by the added weight.
actually the motor is not larger it just revs higher thus more HP. The phev larger battery can drive the motor harder.
 

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Gas in Kentucky is now $2.39/gallon. To be competitive with electricity cost for a full charge it would have to drop in cost to $1.30 per gallon.

My guess is it would have a better chance of approaching $4 to $5 a gallon than ever going down to $1.30 a gallon.

Apologize if my post implied our gas cost was $1.30 a gallon!
 

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The motor is larger and has a higher HP rating. However, due to differing motor and engine HP peaks, the PHEV and HEV have identical HP and torque ratings. That said, I’d bet the PHEV is faster off the line but loses ground to the HEV later in 0-60 because of its weight.
 

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https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a19160404/2018-kia-niro-plug-in-hybrid-test-review/

Yeah this Car & Driver review from 2018 says the PHEV has a more powerful electric motor than the HEV so that leads me to believe it is a more powerful electric motor with 17 more HP than the HEV electric motor (rather than the two versions sharing the same electric motor and just reving it higher in the PHEV). They claim the PHEV is 0.6 seconds quicker to 60 but you won't notice that in daily driving.
 

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The motor is larger and has a higher HP rating. However, due to differing motor and engine HP peaks, the PHEV and HEV have identical HP and torque ratings. That said, I’d bet the PHEV is faster off the line but loses ground to the HEV later in 0-60 because of its weight.
the hev and phev have the same torque rating (see below) but a different HP rating. How is that possible? It's not.

Consider:

HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252

125 ft lb x 1800 rpm / 5252 = 42.8 HP

125 ft lb x 2500 rpm / 5252 = 59.5 HP


Note the phev cannot produce 60 HP at 1800rpm with only 125ft lb. It does reach 60 HP at 2500 rpm which requires more kw than the hev battery can supply.

A kia tech posted 45kw is the phev battery max power (hev is 33). 45kw x 1HP /750w = 60HP 32kw x 1HP /750w = 43 HP

Kia web site spec

Hev
Electric Motor
AC Synchronous Permanent Magnet Motor
Horsepower, Electric Motor
43 hp @ 1,800-2,500 rpm
Torque, Electric Motor
125 lb.-ft. @ 0-1,800 rpm

Phev
Electric Motor
AC Synchronous Permanent Magnet Motor
Horsepower, Electric Motor
60 hp @ 1,800-2,500 rpm (should be @ 2500 rpm)
Torque, Electric Motor
125 lb.-ft. @ 0-1,800 rpm (should be 0-2,500 rpm)
 

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https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a19160404/2018-kia-niro-plug-in-hybrid-test-review/

Yeah this Car & Driver review from 2018 says the PHEV has a more powerful electric motor than the HEV so that leads me to believe it is a more powerful electric motor with 17 more HP than the HEV electric motor (rather than the two versions sharing the same electric motor and just reving it higher in the PHEV). They claim the PHEV is 0.6 seconds quicker to 60 but you won't notice that in daily driving.
The PHEV motor is more powerful but only because it is driven by a more powerful battery. Its the same motor. It is not larger. The 0 to 1800 rpm torque rating is the same as the HEV.
 

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I've had my PHEV for three months now, but to be honest I think I would have been even happier with the EV. As you noted, the console is nicer, and beside the rotary shifter it also has the electronic parking brake, which I would prefer.

My only "gripe", and that's probably not really an accurate word to use, is that the PHEV runs out of EV power to climb and accelerate up a hill. There's one hill I often climb near my home that I cannot maintain speed under EV power only. I can be doing 50 MPH at the bottom (speed limit 45) and I'm down to 40 by the top if I don't engage the ICE. Yes, with the engine running, particularly in Sport Mode, the car has plenty of git up and go. But I try to stay in EV mode as much as possible.

Two things kept me from leasing a EV instead of the PHEV i did get. One was the fact that there were no EX Premium trim available anywhere within 500 miles of my home. The other is that I was considering a job move for a couple of years that would have required a drive across the country. Not only would the EV have taken far longer to drive to Virginia or Texas, but once there I'd be staying in an apartment with no way to charge the car. That move is still possible, although less likely now.

So, bottom line. I'm not unhappy at all with the PHEV, but I really think I would be happy with a full EV. Even the limitations of a PHEV has only made me want a full EV more. But in three years when my lease expires there will be many new EVs on the market, with range and prices that I'd be happy with. So this is a great first step.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Two other notes on the EV test drive that I forgot to mention:

1. There is a odd, annoying pitched whine at idle that goes away after the car reaches ~ 10 mph. Probably one would get used to it.

2. Even the top end EV (@ $45,000 +) didn't have memory function for the driver's seat. The PHEV EX Prem has that and every time the car is turned off, the seat automatically moves as far back as it will go. Not a big deal for many but if one is struggling with, hip, knee, back or weight issues, it definitely would make ingress & egress easier.
 

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Two other notes on the EV test drive that I forgot to mention:

1. There is a odd, annoying pitched whine at idle that goes away after the car reaches ~ 10 mph. Probably one would get used to it.

2. Even the top end EV (@ $45,000 +) didn't have memory function for the driver's seat. The PHEV EX Prem has that and every time the car is turned off, the seat automatically moves as far back as it will go. Not a big deal for many but if one is struggling with, hip, knee, back or weight issues, it definitely would make ingress & egress easier.
1. That's probably the pedestrian alert sound, although it should only be audible while moving. All EVs and PHEVs have them, and I believe even some hybrids have some form of sound as well.

2. I wasn't aware of that, so I just checked the Kia web site. That appears to be accurate, and also quite puzzling. My guess is it was one way they tried to keep the cost as low as possible.
 

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No regrets about buying the PHEV vs. HEV. I drive a 40-mile round trip commute per day, but get to use a free Level 2 charger at work, yay!, and I've put about 8,100 miles on the car since purchasing it in Dec 2018. I've had none of the quirky battery charging issues/dash notifications that other have posted about. When running in HEV mode on the highway, I get between 55-60 mpg. I've never felt that the PHEV was underpowered, and that includes going up a couple of long steep grades on my way to work and passing a number of left-lane campers regularly. I really like having the backup gasoline option for long road trips, especially since I live in an area that doesn't have an extensive public charging system.
 

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We acquired the PHEV in January of 2018 and have never regretted leasing it, but we would not have bought it. By January of 2021 the range of EVs should be greater and the cost down - greatly reducing the resale value of the PHEV. We will then either buy it off lease at a good price, or lease something else. We regularly get almost anywhere around Portland in the 26 miles we get charging overnight using low-cost PGE utility program hours that we enrolled in. When we drive to our previous Port Townsend community we do so in with very comfortable heated and ventilated leather seats and great mileage! This approach has made us very happy!
 

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We acquired the PHEV in January of 2018 and have never regretted leasing it, but we would not have bought it. By January of 2021 the range of EVs should be greater and the cost down - greatly reducing the resale value of the PHEV. We will then either buy it off lease at a good price, or lease something else. We regularly get almost anywhere around Portland in the 26 miles we get charging overnight using low-cost PGE utility program hours that we enrolled in. When we drive to our previous Port Townsend community we do so in with very comfortable heated and ventilated leather seats and great mileage! This approach has made us very happy!
This is exactly why I leased my Niro. By May 2022 there will be a large number of EVs to choose from, with respectable range and reasonable prices. While I will give the e-Niro serious consideration, I've really got my eye on the VW Crozz. Although I hope they come up with a better name for it! :)
 
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