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Discussion Starter #1
I imagine this idea will find both proponents and detractors. I'm going to resist the temptation (at least for the moment) to advocate in either direction, but I thought I would post this because it's likely to be a topic of interest to forum members.

Currently, GM and Tesla have maxed out on eligibility for their customers to receive tax credits for EV (or PHEV) purchases. I have no idea how close Kia is or isn't to also maxing out. They don't seem to be pushing Niro's very hard, but they have a few other models that also plug-in. A bill was recently introduced to extend the tax credit so that manufacturers can sell more vehicles that will be eligible for credits. You can read the details here: https://pluginamerica.org/press-release/plug-in-america-endorses-legislation-to-extend-federal-ev-tax-credit-for-more-americans/
 

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The credits haven't actually expired yet, and we are only talking about three affected manufacturers. Notice how the MRSP has been dropping on these cars as market forces take over. Extending subsidies will likely end up costing consumers and taxpayers. PHEVs are basically a compliance car only with a very limited market without subsidies. EVs (and unsubsidized hybrids) are the near and long term future and pure EV's are going to end up with lower MRSP than ICE cars with no subsidy. If you own Tesla stock, this bill is a great thing. Otherwise, I'm skeptical. The subsidies should run their course having accomplished their purpose.
 

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I am with Griswald. People purchase a vehicle based on there wants neeeds and desires. If the model choices do not meet your criteria then you have the option of either not buying or having to make a sacrifice to what you want. It shouldn't be the governments job to prop up company sales if their products don't meet markets wants needs or desires or that the price point to do that is just too high.



To those who say that they need to give subsidies to drive market change, then I'd say there are two ways to get that goal. Try with a carrot to lead people to make your desired choice, or use a big stick to make them stop doing what you don't want. Why not just heavily tax the big poluting vehicles that you think are causing the problem? (then Trump can use that tax money to build his big wall as it's likely the trump supporters who like to coal roll and drive the big deasil pickup trucks) Would be ironic getting his people to pay.
 

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I think there should be tax incentives, but they should be phased out by your income level. Give full credit to those making less than 75K, and half credit to those making less than 125K. Anyone else gets nothing. And yes, that means I'd get nothing. Would the loss of the tax credit have changed my mind? Probably. The non-PHEV gets good enough gas milage that I may have gone with it. The PHEV gets me a carpool lane sticker and the price difference, after incentive, was worth paying a little more than the regular Niro price for that. Without the incentive I might not have paid 7K more for the PHEV.
 

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I am with Griswald. People purchase a vehicle based on there wants neeeds and desires. If the model choices do not meet your criteria then you have the option of either not buying or having to make a sacrifice to what you want. It shouldn't be the governments job to prop up company sales if their products don't meet markets wants needs or desires or that the price point to do that is just too high.



To those who say that they need to give subsidies to drive market change, then I'd say there are two ways to get that goal. Try with a carrot to lead people to make your desired choice, or use a big stick to make them stop doing what you don't want. Why not just heavily tax the big poluting vehicles that you think are causing the problem? (then Trump can use that tax money to build his big wall as it's likely the trump supporters who like to coal roll and drive the big deasil pickup trucks) Would be ironic getting his people to pay.

Sorry, but you are not "with Griswald".

Griswald is a Trump supporter. You are obviously not.

Just keep lumping us all into that "deplorable" category, that worked out really well in the last election.

P.S. You are on ignore, so don't bother to reply.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Sorry, but you are not "with Griswald".

Griswald is a Trump supporter. You are obviously not.

Just keep lumping us all into that "deplorable" category, that worked out really well in the last election.
It's an intriguing response and I'm tempted to reply, but I don't want to fork the topic of my own thread, so I created a new thread for folks that want to discuss political thought here: https://www.kianiroforum.com/forum/16-off-topic-discussion/8029-where-do-kia-niro-owners-align-politically.html


By the way - Griswald The Deplorable has kind of a catchy ring to it. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
So far it seems like no one is in favor of extending the tax credit.


I'm thinking about a few things, like the fact that Ford Motor Company has pretty much exited the new car market and will now only make trucks and SUVs (in other words, Ford is shooting for short term profits, not going for fuel economy as a primary focus, and they're pretty much conceding that they can't compete in the car market, which I think is a tragedy).

We've seen these cycles how many times? I think most recently it was in 2014 that gas prices surged and everyone was in shock and there was high demand for fuel efficient cars. But as soon as prices relaxed a bit, and people became accustomed to the new prices, we collectively seem to go back to our gas guzzling ways that prefer other features in our cars over fuel economy.


I'm also thinking about Tesla, and all of the huge indirect impact that Tesla (and Toyota before them) has had on their competitor's decisions about what their future lineup looks like. In the past year or two, numerous manufacturers have put forward claims that their new car lineup a few years from now will be heavily tilted toward electric vehicles. How many of them are saying that because they recognize that Tesla and Tesla's technology threatens their old way of designing cars? It seems like alot of what manufacturers have announced is still hot air blathering with few or not HEV/PHEV/EV cars on dealer's lots today (even the much trumpeted Kia Niro EV hasn't shown up on any dealer lots in the USA as of yet, so far as I can tell).


So when thinking about this congressional proposal, I'm contemplating how the larger market would react if some of the leading drivers of the market suddenly altered... for example, how would the larger market change (and how would all of the new tech EV battery research change) if Tesla were to suddenly file for bankruptcy protection or if GM (which already dropped the Chevy Volt) were to follow Ford's lead even further than they already have and discontinue their other most-efficient offerings?


Some of you seemed to be thinking that the collective tax breaks from multiple governments have already nurtured this nascent segment of the car industry sufficiently and now would be a good time to back off and let the free market take over. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with that, but I do recognize that multiple governments around the world have already made a significant investment in HEV and EV technology and whether we individually agreed with that initial decision or not, if it turns out that its too soon to withdraw the tax-based subsidies and that withdrawing them now has the effect of reversing the market trend, then we're probably being penny wise and pound foolish. In other words, now that we're in this deep, maybe it makes more sense to continue to nurture this technology, rather than risk backsliding the way we seem to do every so many years when the price of gas stabilizes or goes down for a time?
 

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Sorry, but you are not "with Griswald".

Griswald is a Trump supporter. You are obviously not.

Just keep lumping us all into that "deplorable" category, that worked out really well in the last election.

P.S. You are on ignore, so don't bother to reply.

I didn't vote for any US politician as I don't live in the USA... so your political system is your problem not mine. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by lumping you in with the stereotypical depction that the media likes to play. I guess there are both republicans and democrats that like to coal-roll and don't give a hoot about polution, just like there are peole of both political persuasion that will go out and buy an eco friendly car to help out with the planet movement.



As for the wall.. Can we get some help to build one up around Quebec/USA border to stem the tied of irregular migrants into Canada from the USA?? We have the same problem of uncontrolled immigration that doesn't come through the regular application channels. The comment on the wall is just poking satire into the thread.
 

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Well,
Kia really isn't an electric car company. They make compliance cars only. In order to sell in compliance states they have to have these PHEV and EV cars.
They really don't want to sell them and neither do their dealerships. Dealers make little money on new cars, the money is in low prices for trade ins, servicing ICE cars and also on finance. With Kia's current rate of EV sales the 200,000 tax credit limit is years away from being reached.
Kia PHEV's and pure EV's are as rare as unicorns on a typical dealers lot.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I agree with some of that, but not all of it. But it seems to me that Kia service organizations can make a lot of money from HEVs and PHEVs (not so sure about EVs, but it's too soon to know). For the next 10 years or so, most of us are expecting that the majority of the service organization's income will come from manufacturer warranty payments, rather than our own pockets.


As for what Kia is actually trying to do strategically (comply or be a leader?), there was an interesting report today on a new Kia Niro variant called the HabaNiro. It's just a concept car, but fun to read about. https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/17/kia-s-habaniro-everything-car-is-the-wackiest-ev-crossover/


As for what dealers make on new car sales: I could have purchased a Prius Plug-in less expensively than my Niro Plug-in. The Toyota dealer told me that they make almost nothing on Prius sales, but dealers have such a complicated incentive structure that it's hard for anyone, including dealers, to figure that out. However, I noticed that my Kia salesperson was really happy to sell my PHEV to me, even after I negotiated the price down significantly. I'm pretty sure that they were making money on that deal, because they had to bring the car in from an unaffiliated dealership in order to sell it to me, and they were still happy when all was said and done.
 
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