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HEV cross shopping Honda Insight

6.7K views 31 replies 14 participants last post by  sightland  
#1 ·
Not as crazy as you think. Daughter graduating college. Son got a Volt last year when he go out and with tax credit and discount paid $17,250 for a new 2018! LOVES it, but stupid Chevy, they are no more. Looking for daughter now.
She will be in an aparment w/o access to a plug so no PEHV or EV. Leaves us with hybrids. Looking at a 2019 Niro LX with ACC cruise. Price is higher than Volt as no tax credit on HEV but with CoronaVirus, and the fact you can't get to a dealer right now with lock down, prices should move in April.

A 2020 Honda Insight is about the same price and has ACC standard so can go with Base model for same price range. Would just go and test drive then both, but again, stuck at home.

Has anyone else cross shopped them? Have seen some compairisons. Basically here is my thought. Niro is a nicer car for her. Just a bit taller with WAY more cargo space than the trunk on the Insight. And I've never thought of her buying Kia before. Down side to Kia, Dual Clutch Trannys are NOT all that great. Look at the Ford fiasco. Lots of complains that the 6speed in the Niro is not that good. Jerky and not smooth down low. TRUE? 2019 any better than the reviews of the first model year 2017? Then there are some Canadians on here who are having problems with the tranny needed complete replacement. Take that with reading some horror stories of cars being broken for WEEKS, I'm afraid for her. Lets face it. Honda reputation is it will just work. Not so sure of this brand.

Plus the JD power rating for the 2019 Niro is way worse than the 2017. Quality, what ever that is, went from 83 to 76. And the range is only 72-87, so it's on the low end now.

Really like the Niro. Tell me it will be ok. Just afraid to spend over $20k and not be reliable.
 
#2 ·
Our canadian based 19 touring niro has been flawless as far as Jd powers i think that they very little credibility, the hybrid dual clutch system is far better than fords focus system other members are far more knowledgeable than i am but it seems that the hybrid system smooths out the shock of launching the car. It it sure is the best car that we have ever owned .
 
#7 ·
The issue in most DCT cars is creep (like in a parking lot) requires clutch slipping. That doesn't happen in a hybrid without doing something really stupid, like trying to hold a static position on a steep hill. This is an economy car, so the DCT is slower than in expensive cars (speed is supposed to be a strength of DCTs and many race cars are so equipped). Unlike standard automatics, DCTs are always direct drive so they are very efficient. And unlike many economy cars, it shifts gears in a rather normal fashion.

As far as any manufacturer issue, you will find that on any car in that model forum. The Insight has an interesting design in that it has no gears. That has some pluses. The minus in my mind is that the engine is engaged directly with the wheels somewhere above 40 mph, and that is the final gear. So it starts to lose efficiency at higher speeds, say above 70.

Personally, I think you should be cross shopping the drivetrain twin to the Niro, the Hyundai Ioniq. Prius shaped, but better looking. More efficient than the Niro because of the aero shape. Base price is a couple grand cheaper, and you should also be able to get a better discount from Hyundai. Ioniqs are pretty rare on the road compared to Niros because we just love SUVs so much.
Thanks for the comments. As for the Ioniq, to get adaptive Cruise, have to move to a package that is $3k more than the Niro we are looking at. Plus the brand is basically the same(Hyundai owns Kia), so don't get what I consider to be the Honda strongest points, reliability.

We have driven many sticks and still have a Mustang GT 5.0 with one now, so know all about slipping clutch in parking lot. This basically does that, but automatically?
Thanks
 
#3 ·
How smooth is the car in parking lots when creaping forward? Heard on youtube of some jerky on-off motion as the clutch engages and disengages. Again, maybe the 2019 is better than the 2017 in this as a firmware flash could change all of this motion.

I actually don't know what goes into a JD Power rating. "Initial Quality" what ever that is. Care more about not breaking and being stuck w/o a car for long periods of time.
 
#4 ·
It feels a little different than traditional auto or cvt it doesn't bother me i drove stick for years, it is better shifter than i ever was it just sometimes if you leave the line with little throttle imput there is a bit of a feathering the clutch feel. It is an automated manual after all. I don't find it harsh i find it interesting. Shifting through the gears is not harsh to but is totally different than say a cvt it's never going to feel like you're driving a product made by bombardier or polaris. I find the shifting more noticeable than modern automatics but like the way that it feels.
 
#5 ·
The issue in most DCT cars is creep (like in a parking lot) requires clutch slipping. That doesn't happen in a hybrid without doing something really stupid, like trying to hold a static position on a steep hill. This is an economy car, so the DCT is slower than in expensive cars (speed is supposed to be a strength of DCTs and many race cars are so equipped). Unlike standard automatics, DCTs are always direct drive so they are very efficient. And unlike many economy cars, it shifts gears in a rather normal fashion.

As far as any manufacturer issue, you will find that on any car in that model forum. The Insight has an interesting design in that it has no gears. That has some pluses. The minus in my mind is that the engine is engaged directly with the wheels somewhere above 40 mph, and that is the final gear. So it starts to lose efficiency at higher speeds, say above 70.

Personally, I think you should be cross shopping the drivetrain twin to the Niro, the Hyundai Ioniq. Prius shaped, but better looking. More efficient than the Niro because of the aero shape. Base price is a couple grand cheaper, and you should also be able to get a better discount from Hyundai. Ioniqs are pretty rare on the road compared to Niros because we just love SUVs so much.
 
#6 ·
I have the 20-18 HEV and sure, every once in a while you get the gear jerk where the computer guessed wrong and the incorrect shift point was selected. But I will say that I have driving quite a few different cars in my lifetime, and all have their neuances. I had a loaner Mercedes while my wifes car was getting fixed. (she drove mine). this is a multiple times more expensive car than the Niro, and it too had times where it hit the wrong gear. I didn't look under the hood to know what sort of transmission it has, but it was a six speed. Ive had Fords that would seriously hesitate before accelerating that is very unnerving when trying to overtake. Driven Saab that was a nightmare to maneuver in a parking lot.

I would suggest that you phone around and if you are looking to buy soon, then tell them that your looking for a longer term test drive considering the virus situation. Can they give you a test drive car for 2-3 days. You'd be surprised and they are hurting far worse than you think and if that is what it takes to sell.
 
#10 ·
Honda’s fell hard in the recent consumer reports rankings. I think the Insight and Clarity fared the best across their lineup.
That being said, I do love my PHEV Niro. I was nervous about switching to Kia from years and years of Japanese ownership but so far I haven’t had an issue. Several owners on here have had 170-220k miles on theirs with relatively few issues. Of course people do have problems and come here to vent so you’ll see more problem posts than posts that say, “hey nothing’s wrong.” I’d seriously consider the PHEV even in your daughters situation. Look at the PlugShare app. There may be more public charging around campus than you realize. Campus may even have some free charging options. Even if she can’t charge, that won’t always be the case. After she graduates if she still has the Niro then maybe she can charge at work/home or wherever. With the tax credit the PHEV LX trim (which comes with all safety tech standard including ACC) is the same price as the regular hybrid. Even if you can’t charge it regularly it makes sense to get the PHEV since it costs the same. You can’t hurt the battery if you drive it around with 0 EV miles left because it reserves 1/4th of the battery for hybrid operation.
 
#11 ·
Ok, test drove a '19 EX today. Dealer met us 1.5 hours away (they are 3 hours from here, but desparate for the sale). Wiped down everything with wipes and wore gloves, you know CoronaVirus thing.

Here are my notes:
Daughter really liked it. Size good. Smaller than Vue, but cargo space very workable for her.

1. Tranny/DCT. Don't know WHAT the internet is talking about. It is not the worst thing out there. AT ALL. With Electric motor, the HEV crawls in parking lots with I think gear 1 fully clutched in and just spins electric motor slow. NO jerking. Sped up slowly and gas motor engaged pretty much without any notice but some engine noise. All other gear shifts smooth, shift like a regular automatic and can only tell shift when engine pitch changes. I tried to screw it up. If slow to say .5 mph and then give it gas, it does lutch forward just a bit. Repeatable 2 of 3 times. NOT A BIG DEAL! Daughter said, "Thats the problem?" If Full stop, remove brake, in .5 seconds it starts creeping forward like an automatic tranny. LIKE PEOPLE EXPECT. WOW! Maybe the '17s that I find lots of reviews on were not as good, but this tranny is nothing to complain about. Slightly different? Maybe. But by being direct drive like a manual, gets better gas mileage. The tradoffs for that are almost completely nothing.
2.Brakes. Daughter though they were touchy. Complete opposite of all reviews that say typical hybrid spongey. Guess that's what happens when move from a 16 year old car with 210,000 miles. I drove it, and having a Volt, though the initial bite was slightly more than the volt, but EASILY modulated. Travel is a bit long, but not too long. And that allows for controlling regen level before the real brakes blend in. AGAIN, NOT A PROBLEM.
3. Noise. The back hatch area lets some road noise in at 65 MPH. It is NOT like some said " so loud I can't talk to others in the car" Only noticed because I was looking for it. Asked daughter and she said, "look, this is how I'm going to be in here", turned on the radio and said "I don't here it". NOT A PROBLEM, hatches are louder than trunks, slight trade for more usable space.
4. Suspension hard?: Drove the 16" wheel one as our roads SUCK here. Where test drove, were better and had to hunt for expansion joints and bumps. Think it is a bit firm, helps handling, will get over how bad local roads are (not really). Do able.

5. Bought it. Signed papers and traded check in Walmart parking lot. Didn't get a PHEV, as where she is moving, there is no charge at the apartments, and the Midwest is not very work charge friendly either. Afraid it wouldn't get charged much, so HEV it is.

6. Don't have actual car, kind of in Corona Virus Lockdown anyway. This was a test drive of an EX. They are dropping off the LX we bought after get from a sister dealership. Did deal today to get all discounts for March and end of month specials from deal being hungary. Heck, next week, they are going to drive 3 hours each way to drop it off at out house. With Corona Virus Uncertainty, that is a good deal.
 
#14 ·
Full stop, remove brake, in .5 seconds it starts creeping forward like an automatic tranny.
By the way, this half second delay is due to the hill hold feature. It also can cause a launch delay when you are trying to cross a road from a stop. It can be kind of scary but fixable once you know what causes it. Simple allow it to start creeping at a stop, press the brakes lightly (avoiding the firm press that invokes hill hold) to stop - now ready for a normal no delay launch. I almost never have to do that as this car has turned my driving behavior into the proverbial little old lady driving once a week to church, so I seldom notice this other than playing around at a stop light keeping up with other crawling traffic.
 
#13 ·
Thanks for the report back! Interesting transaction. Guess the Prius/Insight/Ioniq choices would have been too small. Assume you got the tech package for the advanced cruise control? I bought it for the other safety features, all of which have proved disappointing (but worth it still if any save my life once). I read that those features have gotten far better in the 2020 models, hopefully catching up to other makers.

When I buy anything, I look at reviews and complaints online and treat both with a grain of salt as I know both are not the full story. I actually spent almost a year reading the Ioniq and Niro forums, magazine and video reviews before I bought my car. Never really had any doubt but managed to go through two acute buying fevers before good sense allowed me to back off. Glad I did, got a better price and features.
 
#16 ·
You didn't phrase that quite right. Try this: So by doing the creep, hill hold is cancelled and a light pedal press does not re-engage it. Only a firm press of the brakes activates hill hold until the car moves.
 
#18 ·
It's more that the hill hold is only activated with a firm press on the brake pedal. So after coming to a stop, letting it creep a hair and then using a light touch on the brake, which is all that's required to stop the creep, does not re-engage the hill hold.
 
#19 ·
So the Niro also applies creep most of the time when stopped. The hill hold brake feature easily overcomes that. Brakes also can easily stop cars during "sudden acceleration" - which is why I find it hard to believe any other explanation than user error.

Creep uses a minimal amount of power, no more than 200 watts, but I don't like even that (wish we had a no creep option like Tesla). So I've taken to shifting to neutral at stop lights. This usually requires a foot on the brake anyway - amazing how easily this car rolls!
 
#21 ·
I've only owned manual transmission cars previously so difficult to see any advantage from prior habits. But either way, wouldn't it be good to give the owner the choice of creep or not to creep?
 
#22 ·
I would agree "creep" is a nice safety function to have in a car. This comes in handy especially when putting the car in a garage where you are properly placing it in position only a matter of a couple of feet from the garage wall. Comes in handy parallel parking it tough places to get into. I wouldn't want to be without it.

Others may have completely different opinions based on their driving habits and maybe a creep function on/off switch would satisfy their driving preferences.
 
#24 ·
In my garage, it is pretty awkward to hit the mark - I have a tennis ball hanging from the ceiling - which I put up for the Niro because of the awkwardness. It only takes the lightest of touches on the brake to come to a complete stop, and impossible to balance the brake with the creep to move two inches. So my timing has to be perfect. It's not, so I usually have to settle for a few inches outside the optimal zone except when I'm lucky. Was never an issue with my manual transmission cars. Likely wouldn't have been an issue with automatic equipped cars I have driven (but not owned). Their creep function was much stronger than the Niro, so brake balancing to move a couple inches was not a problem.
 
#25 ·
Really? With my Niro (it's in HEV) I can creep an inch at a time if I want to, probably less than that. I have little "stop signs" on posts in front of my cars as a stop indicator, and can pull in to just touch it, or back up just a tiny bit. That was the case with pretty much all my cars (all previous autos, and my Niro).
 
#27 ·
I'm with @Signet7, for me creep is easy to modulate. I can pull into my garage and control the creep speed from basically 0 to 5mph with gentle brake pressure. Yeah, if you actually come to stop it will take a beat to pick up again but you don't have to completely release the brake to get it going again. Heck if you stop short in a manual transmission you have to feather the clutch to get going again. This is my first DCT, first hybrid and one of the few non-manuals I've ever owned and I think it's pretty ok. Now, I don't now if the creep is slightly different between HEV and PHEV, but in my plug-in it works well. Way better than early BMW DCTs. Obviously the addition of the electric motor makes creep much easier since it can generate torque at 0 RPM.
 
#29 ·
Alex on Autos just posted a review of the 2020 Ioniq. Not quite up to his usual standards, but I'm posting because of the list of trims. So you are right NearZero, to get the smart (adaptive) cruise control and even AEB, it requires going up two trim levels and $5,000. Which also requires getting the larger less efficient wheels. I might be wrong, but it looks like they have really repositioned the marketing on this car since the 2017/18 models. I really hate the new infotainment system as well. Ugly and capacitive touch buttons instead of real buttons. Paddles that control either gear shift or regen depending on which mode you are in are a small plus - usually the Niro will have the same features so I hope you get those.
 
#32 ·
In the US, buyer can expect to get a huge discount on 2019 so LX will cost far less than $20k [in the US]. DCT Hyundai and Kia used on many vehicles such as my son's Veloster works perfectly find and reliable. 2012 Veloster now has about 130K and survived two boys from HS to college without a single problem. Hence I didn't hesitate Niro over Prius which I had cross shopped. slight "jerking" is a characteristic of all DCT even on 2015 $120k [when new] 911S4. Niro DCT starts in electric mode first and far less noticeable than a comparable ICE vehicle with DCT. with current gas price so low, anyone looking for fuel efficient vehicles should get a huge discount. matter a fact with the lock down, it's perfect time to buy a vehicle which my son will be doing in coming weeks to replace his Veloster.