[DanChori]

Hey everyone, new to the forum and looking to find some answers

I am currently looking to buy a kia niro 2020 HEV here in Sweden and my friends recommended me to get the PHEV instead.
When looking online i found out that you can apparently drive the PHEV in HEV mode and conserve the charge, but i cant find out if i have to press it every time i start the car.

Also wondering if you anyone else do this full time and what mpg you would get in a PHEV when using HEV.

My concerns:
1. I dont have anywhere except shopping centers or some parking lots to charge it regularly which I wont do frequently
2. The cars im looking at have been leased before and the previous owners might have just driven it without charging it (its cheeper to lease the PHEV in Sweden)
3. Do i have to press the HEV button every time i start the car
4. Will i have worse MPG in HEV mode I compare to a Niro HEV.

Any answer or help with my questions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Dan

 

[Johnxyz]

I think that is an easy question to answer- if you don't have a home base to charge your car constantly do not get the PHEV.

We have a 2019 PHEV it defaults to EV and you must press a button if you want to drive in HEV if there is available EV charge. Once pressed it will stay in EV until you turn the car off or press the button again.

The HEV gets better MPG because it is lighter than the PHEV which is heavier because of its batteries.

The PHEV advantage is it can run on electric exclusively up to 30 miles. So if you live where you can constantly keep it charged up, your electric is cheaper than gas - then the PHEV makes sense.

As you can see there are qualifiers that must be meant for a PHEV to make sense - generally the PHEV cost more to purchase and to make economic sense the conditions above must be meant.

 

[DanChori]

I think that is an easy question to answer- if you don't have a home base to charge your car constantly do not get the PHEV.

We have a 2019 PHEV it defaults to EV and you must press a button if you want to drive in HEV if there is available EV charge. Once pressed it will stay in EV until you turn the car off or press the button again.

The HEV gets better MPG because it is lighter than the PHEV which is heavier because of its batteries.

The PHEV advantage is it can run on electric exclusively up to 30 miles. So if you live where you can constantly keep it charged up, your electric is cheaper than gas - then the PHEV makes sense.

As you can see there are qualifiers that must be meant for a PHEV to make sense - generally the PHEV cost more to purchase and to make economic sense the conditions above must be meant.

So when pressing HEV button and then restart the car it will go back to default settings?

The difference in price isnt much, the PHEV is 900-1000 $ more expensive.

 

[TK6]

Yes, the car defaults to EV mode when started. When the added charge is depleted, the car will automatically run in HEV mode. If you want to save the added charge, push the button to put it in HEV mode which will try to save your added charge for later. Reasons to do this might be for city only driving, the added power needed to climb long, steep mountain passes or you want to sit in the car for a long period with a/c, radio, etc running without the engine starting.

If you don't have plans to move into a home that will allow you to charge or a workplace that has EV charging, I would just get the regular HEV. It will be more efficient.

 

[D-zone]

So when pressing HEV button and then restart the car it will go back to default settings?

I always have to remember to press HEV after starting the car. I actually press AUTO mode most of the time.

you want to sit in the car for a long period with a/c, radio, etc running without the engine starting

I didn't know about this. I often sit in the cold in my Niro with the everything turned off so as not to deplete gas/charge and emit CO2 while idling. This will save me from freezing and boredom.

 

[jackfish937]

Hey everyone, new to the forum and looking to find some answers

I am currently looking to buy a kia niro 2020 HEV here in Sweden and my friends recommended me to get the PHEV instead.
When looking online i found out that you can apparently drive the PHEV in HEV mode and conserve the charge, but i cant find out if i have to press it every time i start the car.

Also wondering if you anyone else do this full time and what mpg you would get in a PHEV when using HEV.

My concerns:
1. I dont have anywhere except shopping centers or some parking lots to charge it regularly which I wont do frequently
2. The cars im looking at have been leased before and the previous owners might have just driven it without charging it (its cheeper to lease the PHEV in Sweden)
3. Do i have to press the HEV button every time i start the car
4. Will i have worse MPG in HEV mode I compare to a Niro HEV.

Any answer or help with my questions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Dan

The PHEV at least as far as these forums , has definitely had more issues than the HEV . If you can't plug in regularly avoid the added complexity . I wish that we had the PHEV now but we live in a house .

 

[dblackfl]

Knowing the mpg after the PHEV's EV range is exhausted will be a little lower than a straight HEV, it costs more.. and if you're okay with all that and still want one...

Just get in and drive. Only if you have significant EV mode charge (e.g. you just topped it off at a shopping center) and want to save that charge for later, do you need to ever manually flip to HEV mode or the (in my opinion) mostly useless Auto mode. Otherwise drive as usual and the car will do that automatically when the PHEV battery depletes to around 16-17%. Afterwards it will be maintained at that level plus or minus, usually a few percent. That's how it'll continue to function until or if you plug it in again.

If you really want to charge up the PHEV without plugging in, that can be done with an hour or two driving in Sport mode and a light foot on the accelerator or cruise on flat terrain. You'd of course burn more gas doing so vs. leaving it in Eco and driving as a HEV. I wouldn't bother.

As a happy PHEV owner with a level 2 home EVSE and plenty of free charging stations in my area I say get one only if either at home or somewhere else for cheap or free you can regularly charge. That is, or you expect to be able to do so while you own it. They cost more than the HEV, are heavier and a little more complex, besides the larger battery adding an AC charging system similar to a pure EV.

 

[atc98092]

didn't know about this. I often sit in the cold in my Niro with the everything turned off so as not to deplete gas/charge and emit CO2 while idling. This will save me from freezing and boredom.

The 2023 PHEV also offers an electric heater as an option (might be standard where you live), so you can stay warm without the engine running. Just remember that it's going to use some of your EV range to do that. And the battery has to have some range in it (i.e. it's been at least partially charged from the wall) or the engine will still cycle off/on to keep warm inside. A zero range PHEV becomes a HEV and will need the engine to run to provide heat.

There's one other possible motive for getting the PHEV: it has a much more powerful EV motor than the HEV, so even in HEV mode it's going to be a bit quicker. Even if you can't regularly plug it in, that might be worth the slight increase in weight and slight loss of MPG.

 

[Dovidan]

At OP: I agree with several others, the PHEV is a poor choice without a reliable charging option. No reliable charging option simply renders the PHEV a poorer value.

Speaking of values... thanks to Clark Howard I recently learned that you can put any VIN number in at iSeeCars.com/VIN and get a detailed report on the car plus current and projected resale values. To my SHOCK the site indicates that used Niro HEVs have a slightly higher resale value than PHEVs. The difference is only about $100 but still that surprised me given the fact that new the PHEV was almost $5K more. Apparently the market for use PHEV is softer than for HEVs -- at least when considering the NIro. Me thinks that many buyers lack charging options and / or simply are more comfortable with the less complex PHEV.

 

[BarryP]

... To my SHOCK the site indicates that used Niro HEVs have a slightly higher resale value than PHEVs. ...

That trend is interesting. I wonder if it’s because a PHEV battery will degrade much faster than an EV? And thus may need replaced with future owners?

Case in point: 2022 PHEV battery is 8.9kWhr. Range is 26 miles. An SK Innovation battery appears to be good for 3000 charges (0-100%). Of which it drops to 80% of capacity. So 26 miles x 3000 x 80% = 62,400 miles (conservative estimate).

Compare that to a 2022 Niro EV; the battery is 64.8kWhr. Range is 239 miles. So 239 miles x 3000 x 80% = 573,00 miles. That number seems a little big. It’s probably less than that because I’ll be in an Arizona desert with blaring sun and heat for a few months or have a few deep freezes. So maybe 350,000 miles.

As a side note, as Elon is developing his “1,000,000 mile battery”, he probably means he’s designing a battery that can get 4,000 charges (250 miles/charge (after 20% drop) x 4000).

I have seen this degradation in my 2012 iMiev (16 kWh battery). At 80,000 miles now I used to get 70 summer miles. Now, I’m down to 50 summer miles; a near 30% drop. Of course, the SK Innovation batteries are much better than the Mitsubishi batteries from 11 years ago (including the cooling system).

The large-battery Tesla’s--- they keep going even to 400,000 miles

-Barry
-Warning: EVs are addictive

 

[atc98092]

Case in point: 2022 PHEV battery is 8.9kWhr. Range is 26 miles. An SK Innovation battery appears to be good for 3000 charges (0-100%). Of which it drops to 80% of capacity. So 26 miles x 3000 x 80% = 62,400 miles (conservative estimate).

I think that's an underestimation. Many battery experts feel a typical Li-Ion battery is going to have between 4000-6000 charge cycles. Also, a PHEV never drops to zero, so a full charge is not a complete single charge cycle. Since my PHEV was always fully charged every day, by your estimation it should have lost enough capacity to be noticeable. But when I traded mine in at 22,000 miles, it was still reporting 26 miles (24 with HVAC on) and real world returning 30+ miles.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say the PHEV battery is good for 4000 charge cycles before losing 20% capacity. Since each full charge is only 85% (the car switches to HEV mode at 16% battery charge), 4000 charges is really only 3400 cycles. Even if we don't account for the 85% figure to fill that gap, that means there's 4600 charge cycles before losing 20%. Assuming a single daily charge (might not be completely accurate, but it's a nice round number), it would take 12.6 YEARS to lose 20% of the battery capacity. Assuming 15,000 miles a year of driving, that's 189,000 miles. I would consider this a worst case set of numbers. If each day's driving doesn't use the entire 85% of available battery power, the length of time and total miles driven would increase.

And at 80% capacity, the PHEV is still going to provide 20.8 miles of EV range (again assuming EPA range, in reality probably closer to 25 miles. Yes, it's a loss of range. But nowhere near catastrophic and highly unlikely anyone would bother replacing that battery that soon. I don't see battery degrading as an issue for the PHEVs.

 

[BarryP]

...Many battery experts feel a typical Li-Ion battery is going to have between 4000-6000 charge cycles. ...

I would trust SK estimates at 3000. Plus the Leafs and iMievs show the degradation. The Teslas show 10% degradation per 100k miles per 90kW battery. I haven’t heard of any 4000-cycle EV batteries in production cars.

...Also, a PHEV never drops to zero, so a full charge is not a complete single charge cycle. ...

Correct. For example, charging from 30-80% every day is considered a half charge cycle.

... But when I traded mine in at 22,000 miles, it was still reporting 26 miles (24 with HVAC on) and real world returning 30+ miles....

It’s difficult to separate gas and electric mileage. If that’s 100% electric, that’s a great sign for SK batteries. Has any PHEV owner put 50k pure-electric miles on their Niro yet? It would be interesting to study. I read somewhere KIA is changing (or has changed) battery vendors and I wonder how those new batteries will fare?

-Barry

 

[atc98092]

It’s difficult to separate gas and electric mileage. If that’s 100% electric, that’s a great sign for SK batteries. Has any PHEV owner put 50k pure-electric miles on their Niro yet?

Really no way of knowing how much of the driving is EV only. A lot of my driving was EV, but the ICE was running to provide heat, so adding a slight charge back into the battery under those conditions. I would guess (and that's all it is) that my EV only driving was maybe 60%, with maybe another 25% with the ICE running but not motivating the car. So maybe 15% was in HEV mode and the engine was doing most of the work moving the car.

 

[neogenesus]

I like to use EV mode when climbing on a hill because going up hill using ICE takes a hit to the mpg. I have 2023 Kia Niro PHEV and the electric motor has enough power.

 

[dblackfl]

But when I traded mine in at 22,000 miles, it was still reporting 26 miles (24 with HVAC on) and real world returning 30+ miles.

Another data point: there are just over 64K miles on mine, and it was purchased new exactly two years ago. I'm the second owner. The first owner put on a monstrous number of miles in its first year. However, at full charge it too (still) reports 26 miles EV range, and 29-30 miles @ avg. 50 mph is what I typically see for real-world.

With a new OBD adapter I just got PHEV Watchdog fully working. It at first reported the HV battery retained 99.5% design capacity, then after a couple drives "updated" that to 100%. Not sure yet I believe 0.0% degradation over two years, though at least a few others on this forum have similarly reported no discernible degradation over longer periods.

 

[dblackfl]

Really no way of knowing how much of the driving is EV only.

I'm happy to share the good news there is more than one. How to approach it depends on what "EV only" means, understanding the source of charge to the battery can be internal, external or both. If the car had the "EV" light lit and the ICE was running, does that count? It's possible to handle all these cases, some with a little more work than others.

Here's a simple method with a good ballpark result. It provides the approximate fraction of miles driven in EV (i.e. not HEV) mode: those driven from charge obtained by plugging in. You need one: that composite "too-high" figure the PHEV reports from a trip meter, and two: similarly reported mpg from at least one HEV-only trip, assuming that's representative. If you have only the composite figure handy, for the second use the EPA mpg estimate for your model year and trim level.

Example: On average my car returns 48 mpg in HEV mode, coincidentally the same as the EPA figure. I reset the long-term trip meter when I bought the car and let it run. Today it says 4,774 miles and 145 mpg. Divide the HEV mpg by that: 48 / 145 = 0.331 or 33%. The car has been driven "as an EV" approximately 67% of the time - nice! A plus of this method is the known optimistic mpg error is divided out.

With historical OBD data, an app like PHEV Watchdog or Torque... and optionally if recording total input charging kWh, other more direct ways are possible. Altering how the non-EV mpg figure is measured in the simple method can provide even more interesting numbers and perspectives.

 

[atc98092]

If the car had the "EV" light lit and the ICE was running, does that count?

Some will say that doesn't count, as you're still running the ICE and causing emissions. Of course, pre-'23 the ICE was the only way to heat the cabin, and while it was running it was only running at a fast idle until it was warm enough to provide some cabin heat, then turn back off. Other than providing a trickle charge to the battery, the ICE wasn't moving the car. With a '23 that has the cold weather package, you now have an electric heater so the ICE won't run at all solely for cabin heat.

 

[Griswald]

You could add a hour meter to your ICE and it will tell you how long the gasoline engine is running. My trip meter 2 shows around 46 mph average, so simple math gives you the percentage on gasoline only vs gasoline/EV and EV only.

 

[dblackfl]

You could add a hour meter to your ICE and it will tell you how long the gasoline engine is running. My trip meter 2 shows around 46 mph average, so simple math gives you the percentage on gasoline only vs gasoline/EV and EV only.

That's a more direct way to get similar info, with a bit of additional hardware. Another data point: I saw on PHEV Watchdog's web site - when logged in, across the 23 Kia/Hyundai PHEV being tracked there the average is 71% EV driving (29% with ICE running).

 

[vangone]

I like to use EV mode when climbing on a hill because going up hill using ICE takes a hit to the mpg. I have 2023 Kia Niro PHEV and the electric motor has enough power.

Overall I don't think it matters if you use EV or ICE going uphill. In EV mode you are using more electrical energy per unit distance, just like using more gas with the ICE per unit distance. I am not too sure how to interpret the overall mpg with the PHEV. Mixing EV mode with ICE mode really muddies the water and if one minimizes the amount of non-EV miles, it seems that eventually with time, the mpg estimate goes back up to 999. It's more of a novelty number. I am disappointed when I do a manual mpg calculation using ICE only and realize that I am only getting 46-49 mpg on gas and not 999 mpg.