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No 12 volt

12K views 53 replies 9 participants last post by  Mal 
#1 ·
I really dislike the fact the power ports turn off when the car isn't running. ?
 
#7 ·
If you have the PHEV your 12V battery is really dinky and easy to run down if something was left plugged in. Even the HEV's 12V section is likely not as robust as a traditional ICE's battery. Add in the fact that people today have a lot more devices that draw a lot more power than in the past and you can see why manufacturers are moving away from always on 12V accessory ports. Dead batteries aren't much fun.
 
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#8 ·
I haven't had a car with a constant on 12v source for probably close to two decades. Just something they are all moving away from.
 
#10 ·
The car really has a constant 12v, just leave it on. Unfortunately, it won't let you lock it and walk away like that and someone can get in and drive off even without the fob.

The button should be labeled "on off" not engine start stop. I don't like how much they forced things to behave like a conventional car......

But I understand.
 
#11 ·
The car really has a constant 12v, just leave it on. Unfortunately, it won't let you lock it and walk away like that and someone can get in and drive off even without the fob.

The button should be labeled "on off" not engine start stop. I don't like how much they forced things to behave like a conventional car......

But I understand.
Problem is that the button does more than just On/Off. Like the ignition key in an old timey car there are three modes (well four if you count Off): Accessory, On and Start/Run. Which mode you get depends on whether or not you are pressing the brake pedal:
  • 1 Press, No brake: Accessory mode. Limited to 1 hour to prevent battery discharge and some things like windows won't work.
  • 2 Presses, No brake: On Mode. Everything is on as if the car was started but the ICE will not run. This can easily discharge the battery and is not time limited
  • Any press, Brake on. Engine start (according to the manual, I know this is not how it actually works).
I for one think the whole push-button start thing is a step backwards and a waste. The old multi-position ignition switch worked perfectly and was pretty intuitive. One click for accessory (or maybe one click backwards like in my '97 Dodge Ram), one click for Run, and a momentary position for Start. No muss no fuss. If you want to go keyless how about a rotary switch on the dash:

Off-Acc-Run-Start (momentary)

Yeah, I'm old. ? But I hate when designers change things simply for the sake of change and end up making things more complicated and harder to understand for people who grew up expecting systems to operate in a certain way. For example, rotary shift knobs and shifters with just momentary switches rather than the traditional PRNDL detents. That one has likely caused at least one death that I'm aware of and provides no actual benefit over the older style.
 
#12 ·
Yeah Murf, often forget there are two...no 3 versions. The plug in is more of an on off than the HEV and the EV even more so.

I agree change for its sake may be good for advertising or even fun but not worth much otherwise.

What bothers me more is just the opposite. Mfrs jamming the EV round peg into the conventional square hole. With the exception of Tesla; HEVs, PIHEVs and pure EVs attempt to act like conventional ICE powered cars sacrificing many of their advantages. I don't like it...... but I understand. They gotta sell cars to the average ICE car owner, not so much the geek.
 
#13 ·
What bothers me more is just the opposite. Mfrs jamming the EV round peg into the conventional square hole. With the exception of Tesla; HEVs, PIHEVs and pure EVs attempt to act like conventional ICE powered cars sacrificing many of their advantages. I don't like it...... but I understand. They gotta sell cars to the average ICE car owner, not so much the geek.
Other than the fact that some hybrids like the Niro keep a conventional transmission what ICE centric features are you talking about that EVs could do without? I'm curious because I actually find Tesla's approach somewhat off putting as it seems they are trying hard to be different for the sake of being different. One of my co-workers has a Model 3 and the lack of a traditional keyfob bugs her, sure she could buy one, but why should she have too? The lack of a more conventional dash is another "feature" I could do without. I think Tesla's EV tech is amazing, but their interior and user interface designs? Ehhhh.
 
#14 ·
Many examples...creep in gear, arbitrary regen when the accelerator is released, unwanted friction braking, lack of control using engine, yes, key fob etc. Tesla gives you control over many of those for ICE owners stuck in their ways.
 
#15 ·
OK.. I am rather confused about this.

Creep in gear. - I guess you either like it or you don't. Without creap, my wife would be hitting walls and the backs of cars. There are some love the idea of creep as it allows you to slowly creep along with all the other traffic. wonderful in stop and go around here. I can just lift up off the break without the need to lift my foot and then transfer it to an accellerator then back to the break. Why would you not want that??

Arbitrary Regen - Again, I faiul to understand the complaint about this? And to further the point, how is this at all connected to trying to make a hybrid act like an ICE only car.. they don't have regen at all! But if you take the foot off the accelerator, then the electrical motor can capture the spinning momentum and get electricity from it. It's really FREE as the motor is not slowing the car down. Your not getting much votage from it, but some. It's not until you get into a proper break that your engaging a high level charge that will slow you down as well. I guess you'd rather they not tell you about it but do it behind your back.

unwanted friction braking - So you are telling me that the Tesla doesn't use friction breaks. YEA RIGHT. And what I question is how you are testing when the friction breaks are coming on or not. And I bet as **** you'd be pretty p!-off if the car wasn't slowing down fast enough if they didn't use friction breaks when they do.

lack of control using engine - It is a hybrid! end of statement. (Tesla doesn't have an engine)

Key Fob? - This one has me confused. and what are you expecting to use to control how if and when the doors open and the car runs? Oh your using your phone. And what for those who don't actually use a cell phone.. or more fun is your cell phone runs out of power before the end of the day and now your stuck in the parking lot looking for an 110v electrical outlet to charge your cell phone to get into your car. RIGHT that is steps forward.

I like physical buttons. I like physical knobs that you can adjust the temp of the heat. I don't want to need to take off winter gloves when it's freezing cold outside, to turn on the car and put it into defrost mode. I don't feel the need to have to carry around a cell phone to be able to get into my car and run it. There is many things that Tesla does that I don't like and that is why I don't own one. But if you like it that much more then I will ask why are you not driving one?
 
#17 ·
I thought much the same as you guys but after a little experience with EV's and a lot of study on the way Tesla does things, I realize the artificiality of how the PHEV Niro does things trying to resemble an ICE. And yes, I would prefer a pure EV. The cost, the current charging network and my driving habits prevent it.

A few specifics.... why creep? Purely because that's what an idling ICE does. Why would you want the car to move before you press the accelerator? It should sit still with the brake on until you do. Tesla calls it single pedal driving.

Arbitrary regen. Regen is far less efficient than coasting. Releasing the accelerator shouldn't cost efficiency. This obviously is contrary to Tesla's single pedal option but you have to choose.

Of course Tesla uses friction braking, I know you didn't think I thought it didn't... but only when you press the brake pedal in single pedal operation. I know, emergency braking and all that.....

I never carried a fob until Niro. It still frustrates me some but boy, is it handy. I have a trick finger that makes pocket access difficult and or with full hands, the fob is great.

Engine control....to maximize efficiency over 24 to 38 miles, it needs to be off period. 1kw electric heat would do most of what I need but to use it, the engine will start. I don't know exactly where it will start with acceleration. I know, watch the gauge, but I'd much rather be able to use a guaranteed full electric when I want it. Emergencies could be handled with flooring it.

Friction brakes are a real waste. I could likely make 90% of my stops without if I just had a cue as to when they are used. KIA did such a good job that I can't tell.

I totally agree with wanting levers, knobs and buttons for important controls as they can be operated without looking away from the road/HUD (another of my preferences).

As to being able to get in and drive. Tesla's operation is totally intuitive. My daughter just drove a model 3 and her words were, " it changed my life". A bit dramatic but she said in seconds she was right at home. She is a bit of a geek but certainly the Tesla is less than 12500# so no type rating required.
 
#21 ·
Arbitrary regen. Regen is far less efficient than coasting. Releasing the accelerator shouldn't cost efficiency. This obviously is contrary to Tesla's single pedal option but you have to choose.

Engine control....to maximize efficiency over 24 to 38 miles, it needs to be off period. 1kw electric heat would do most of what I need but to use it, the engine will start. I don't know exactly where it will start with acceleration. I know, watch the gauge, but I'd much rather be able to use a guaranteed full electric when I want it. Emergencies could be handled with flooring it.
I guess you don't understand the function of how the Niro does regen. If you had a totally flat track and accelerated up to 50mph and then took your foot off the accelerator, it will coast about the exact same distance with the engine sitting in drive getting a nominal regen as it would if you shift into neutral disconnecting the electric motor from the system. The initial regen isn't enough to really make a difference. As you start to press the break, you will notice that the regen level will go up. There is a line on the dash gauge where it goes from thin to thick. Around that transition point is where the car will actively start to slow itself down. Before then you are really passively slowing.

As for your engine control. You are complaining as the HEV has a 40hp electric motor. The PHEV has a 60hp electric motor (and more battery weight). Your logic is that a Tesla with a 250hp motor you can accelerate really fast to your desired speed, but the Hybrid Niro, if you accelerate too fast the motor kicks in. OK,. have you tried to make a 40hp gas engine accelerate a 3300lbs car? Its not going to do this very fast. As well, the motor has to consider the pull on the battery and heat generated. A 40hp motor running at 100% full load will generate far more heat than a 60hp motor running at 67% load, and a 250hp motor running at 16% load will be stone cold. So your beef is that Kia put in a small motor that saves cost, weight and space rather than loading in a really big electric motor so you can accelerate in pure EV mode up to 38mph.

I have a 2018 HEV EX, and if the battery is at the 75% charge, I can from a full stop, drive up to the 38mph in full EV. It just happen to be rather slow at first and rather ticks off most people behind me. If rather than a full stop, I can do a rolling stop at the stop sign, then its a bit easier and following vehicles will just be somewhat annoyed. But it can be done. With a 40hp electric motor.

Again, BUY A BEV. clearly the hybrid is not for you.


I personally thing that ALL Tesla's are a total waste of time for one undeniable reason. They cost way too much. For the price difference between the Tesla and my Niro is about $25,000. For that cost, I can fully fuel my Niro for the 10 years of owndership and even purchase a Carbon Offset credit for all the pollution with money left in my pocket.
 
#20 ·
Creep: not all EVs have creep, or it can be toggled on/off. Yes, it would be nice if Kia gave us the option.

Arbitrary regen: I have no idea what you mean by that. On the Niro PHEV, regen is controlled by how hard you press the brake pedal. Yes, I believe the BEV version has a way to set different levels, approaching (but not quite reaching) one pedal driving. But I also understand that BEV regen can be set to work the same as the HEV/PHEV. And all cars with regen also use friction brakes. They just use them sparingly, with regen providing the majority of braking force necessary under most driving conditions.

Key fob: virtually every car has a fob of some kind. Even Tesla's "credit card" functions as a fob in most ways. Keyless entry is what so many cars have now. I never take the fob out of my pocket, and overall rarely even touch it. Just a touch of the door handle locks or unlocks the door, and a button press starts the car. So I don't understand your point there.

With the PHEV there's no way around using the ICE for cabin heat. No, 1 kW is not sufficient for colder climates. And with a battery as small is the Niro has, using battery power alone (resistive or heat pump) would make the EV range drop into the low teens. I'd rather have the ICE running at an idle and burning a very small amount of gas that allows me to keep about 30 EV miles of range. I too would like the ability to force the ICE to remain off if desired, but real world driving dictates the occasional need for acceleration that the PHEV motor can't provide. It's only a 60 HP motor, and doesn't offer enough power for climbing long hills or brisk acceleration when needed. The Prius Prime PHEV has 90 HP, so can likely do much better in that regard, as will the upcoming Rav4 Prime. The Chevrolet Volt was another example of a PHEV that has enough EV power that the ICE can remain off at full throttle.

I agree that Kia has done an excellent job of blending friction brakes and regen. Do I care to know when the brakes are being applied? Not really. I know regen is providing a significant amount of the stopping power, and if I kept the car long enough that would be reflected on how long a time passes before a brake job is necessary.

If you never carried a fob before, how did you lock/unlock/drive your car? Before keyless entry, you had to use the key to unlock the door and to start the car. Not asking to argue, just honestly curious as to what you meant.
 
#23 ·
Looks like a bunch of folks agree.

Don't get me wrong I love the PHEV Niro and with a few software changes, it would be far better. If those changes were not selectable, most ICE customers wouldn't buy it. A 15 min test drive would just make it seem wierd.
 
#25 · (Edited)
I'm sorry, what was that chart supposed to prove (it was so nice you posted it twice)? That the Tesla Model 3 is popular? Noted. People I know who have them seem happy. As do, weirdly enough, most of the people who bought the Niro. Why does that bother you? You have some problems with the Niro, we get it. What we don't get is why you think that means Kia got it wrong. The wonderful thing about modern life is that you have choices. Pretty much everyone can find a car that fits their needs and wants. You seem to think there's only one right answer. Are you related to this guy?
5917

I find the fact that Yeltsin is standing in front of a case full of Jello Pudding Pops frankly hilarious. We beat the Soviets not with bombs, tanks or planes, but with tasty frozen treats. ?
 
#27 ·
Arbitrary regen just means that the car regens as if the ICE were vacuum braking. You have no control over it. It's arbitrary.

No, I like the fob but not many folks leave home without their phone or wallet. Plus I consistently start the alarm if I do any work around the place and yes this is the first time I've carried one.

The 1 kw heater doesen't warm the car very well alone but it would defog. Sure it Iwould reduce range by about the same amount the AC does but you would still have 20+ miles, plenty for local errands and you wouldn't need it for the whole trip, just defog. A heated steering wheel and heated seats would eliminate ICE use on all but the coldest days around here but i don't have the option. I would never ask she who must be obeyed to drive that way but I would.

If I knew when friction brakes were used, I'd soon learn to not use them if not needed.

I suppose the HEV to the PHEV to the EV is a logical progression. Many resist the change, but it's coming. I'm amazed that the big mfrs world wide are so far behind..... you know who.
 
#30 ·
If I knew when friction brakes were used, I'd soon learn to not use them if not needed.
If you slow at a moderate or even brisk rate, brakes only engage below 6 mph to come to a full stop. Watch the power gauge, you can slow down briskly just using regen. Mostly the mechanical brakes are only panic stops. Mind you, I have been a passenger recently with drivers with a very jerky style. mashing the brakes and the accelerator pedal in what seems to be to be a pointless fashion. Certainly both inefficient and uncomfortable for passengers. Hopefully this is uncommon and does not include anyone on this forum.
 
#28 ·
I didn't intend to post the chart twice, sorry if it irritated anyone to the point of removing it. It just illustrated how far behind the other luxury mfrs are and that Tesla is taking their sales. I transport the VERY wealthy. Many of those that can afford absolutely anything drive a Tesla.

Oh, why did you make fun of my dad? He just likes fudgecicles.

Seriously I am not a Tesla fanboy. I don't own one. It intrigues me that they have just in a few short years been able to run with, and in some ways, over the big dogs. I think I see why.
 
#29 ·
And I'll say it again, I love this car. 90% of my driving days are full EV. I bought gas this morning having driven just under 1000 miles. It was dirt cheap and yet equipped better than any car I've owned. I've had exactly 0 problems in 22500 miles. It looks fine and the wife likes it too. If the Tesla had cost the same, I still would have chosen the Niro.

Sorry if my critiques may have offended, I enjoy the discussion and cars in general, owning 7 at the moment, mostly worthless.
 
#32 ·
Sorry if my critiques may have offended, I enjoy the discussion and cars in general, owning 7 at the moment, mostly worthless.
No offense taken, and I too enjoy the back and forth. :cool:

I agree that some of the choices made by the Kia engineers are not ones I would have made. However, aside from the HVAC I can't point at one that I would argue was wrongly decided. What you call arbitrary regen is just one way out of several to handle no-throttle coasting. Kia could have added regen paddles or other ways of adjusting the regen effort but that would have added cost and possible points of failure to a car that's marketed as an affordable hybrid. Tesla (Model 3 excepted), Audi, Porsche and other high-end automakers are free to add all manner of whiz bang features that drive up costs because they're marketed to people for whom cost is not an ultimate deciding factor.

I find the brakes very intuitive and easy to modulate to maintain max regen. I like how Kia blended the transition from regen to friction, it's really smooth and unobtrusive. Sure they could have done it differently, providing a more obvious indication of the transition. They decided to focus on making the system behave consistently and seamlessly. For most drivers that's probably the right choice.

You're right that the econ gauge is sometimes misleading but I suspect that's an instrumentation issue not indicative of the actual behavior of the car.
 
#31 ·
Yeah, I doubt I use friction brakes much at all. Rotated the tires yesterday and the rear rotors were a bit rusty even. I still wish I had precise indication of just when they operate. Don't know if it's true but I estimate max regen is similar to max electric acceleration. Likely lots of variables however.....

A mystery to me is when on a gentle downslope and fast the econ needle is well into the green, not in regen area, yet the engine is not running and the energy flow display indicates flow wheels to battery and "charging". Another is when starting downhill and braking when no regen is indicated. Plenty of room in the battery. Usually a quick jab on the accelerator will wake it up and start regen.
 
#34 ·
I certainly wouldn't want a physical cue for the start of friction braking. That would be quite a turnoff. Just a little yellow light would be sufficient. The blending brings up another question. It's so good that I wonder if it blends friction long before full regen thereby wasting some level of regeneration. I can't help but suspect that's the case.
 
#35 ·
I think my complaints could almost all be solved with selectable settings by software changes. This would allow the car to be test driven resembling an ICE so it would sell yet us geeks could....

Prevent ICE use if desired with low battery and full throttle exceptions.

Prevent creep, keep brake engaged until accelerator use.

Eliminate arbitrary regen. Control it only with cruise and brake.

This would leave a friction brake indicator that likely would need a hardware mod.... color that expensive to impossible.
 
#37 ·
I think I can say with very high confidence that precisely 0 of these will come to pass. I've never heard of an automaker (non-Tesla division) adding or changing major features to an existing vehicle. They may decide to add some or all of these to later models, but for those of us with cars now we're probably going to have to live with what we have.
 
#36 ·
Regen is not arbitrary, it is by design. In fact the slowing generated mimics all standard cars when the accelerator pedal is released, and as such, is a needed feature for most driver's comfort.

The ability to coast with no slowing other than air pressure and friction of tires on the road can be useful (under limited circumstances), and indeed I would welcome a software option to choose for myself, especially the creep function. However, should you need to coast, all you have to do is shift into neutral, just like you would have to in a regular car. I also do that at a stop to ensure no energy is going to unwanted creep - but that is a minimal energy use.

It is obvious under what circumstances they engage as I've said before. An idiot light while doing a panic stop would not be helpful. You also know they must engage in the last few feet of a stop, whether or not you have an electric parking brake (a required item for full stop/start cruise control). I suppose you could rig a pressure indicator inline with your hydraulics to confirm this, but why? Brake blending only occurs when regen is not sufficient for the deceleration required. That includes panic stops and full stops and nothing in between other than extreme jerky driving.

What else do you need? Besides actual reports from the car designers, you also have some evidence on how long the brakes last compared to non hybridized cars. Ask Gbillyg123 if he replaced his brake pads at any time before he sold the car with 157K miles. Lots of reports from Prius owners never needing maintenance on their brakes during ownership. You could also use a heat camera after a stop on your disks. One member did this after holding his brake pedal all the way down a mountain. Minimal heat that would be associated with use of brakes from 10 mph to stop.

If these issues are really as important to you as you seem to be saying, I might suggest a Tesla. I would suspect you will have other issues you discover with those cars. Plus they cost a lot more. Economy cars have compromises plus the manufacturer is trying to reach a wide market of those used to normal cars who dislike weird cars.
 
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