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Most cars do this as it prevents power draw off the battery when the car isn't running preventing the 12 volt battery from running down. I have never owned a car that kept the power ports on when the car was off.
 

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Most cars do this as it prevents power draw off the battery when the car isn't running preventing the 12 volt battery from running down. I have never owned a car that kept the power ports on when the car was off.
My past VWs did, but I don't think my last one did (2014 Passat TDI)
 

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If you have the PHEV your 12V battery is really dinky and easy to run down if something was left plugged in. Even the HEV's 12V section is likely not as robust as a traditional ICE's battery. Add in the fact that people today have a lot more devices that draw a lot more power than in the past and you can see why manufacturers are moving away from always on 12V accessory ports. Dead batteries aren't much fun.
 

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My 2001 PT Cruiser had always on 12 volt supply. But it was a battery killer. In fact, I spent a couple hours with my laptop plugged in once and drained the battery.
 

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The car really has a constant 12v, just leave it on. Unfortunately, it won't let you lock it and walk away like that and someone can get in and drive off even without the fob.

The button should be labeled "on off" not engine start stop. I don't like how much they forced things to behave like a conventional car......

But I understand.
 

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The car really has a constant 12v, just leave it on. Unfortunately, it won't let you lock it and walk away like that and someone can get in and drive off even without the fob.

The button should be labeled "on off" not engine start stop. I don't like how much they forced things to behave like a conventional car......

But I understand.
Problem is that the button does more than just On/Off. Like the ignition key in an old timey car there are three modes (well four if you count Off): Accessory, On and Start/Run. Which mode you get depends on whether or not you are pressing the brake pedal:
  • 1 Press, No brake: Accessory mode. Limited to 1 hour to prevent battery discharge and some things like windows won't work.
  • 2 Presses, No brake: On Mode. Everything is on as if the car was started but the ICE will not run. This can easily discharge the battery and is not time limited
  • Any press, Brake on. Engine start (according to the manual, I know this is not how it actually works).
I for one think the whole push-button start thing is a step backwards and a waste. The old multi-position ignition switch worked perfectly and was pretty intuitive. One click for accessory (or maybe one click backwards like in my '97 Dodge Ram), one click for Run, and a momentary position for Start. No muss no fuss. If you want to go keyless how about a rotary switch on the dash:

Off-Acc-Run-Start (momentary)

Yeah, I'm old. 馃懘 But I hate when designers change things simply for the sake of change and end up making things more complicated and harder to understand for people who grew up expecting systems to operate in a certain way. For example, rotary shift knobs and shifters with just momentary switches rather than the traditional PRNDL detents. That one has likely caused at least one death that I'm aware of and provides no actual benefit over the older style.
 

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Yeah Murf, often forget there are two...no 3 versions. The plug in is more of an on off than the HEV and the EV even more so.

I agree change for its sake may be good for advertising or even fun but not worth much otherwise.

What bothers me more is just the opposite. Mfrs jamming the EV round peg into the conventional square hole. With the exception of Tesla; HEVs, PIHEVs and pure EVs attempt to act like conventional ICE powered cars sacrificing many of their advantages. I don't like it...... but I understand. They gotta sell cars to the average ICE car owner, not so much the geek.
 

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What bothers me more is just the opposite. Mfrs jamming the EV round peg into the conventional square hole. With the exception of Tesla; HEVs, PIHEVs and pure EVs attempt to act like conventional ICE powered cars sacrificing many of their advantages. I don't like it...... but I understand. They gotta sell cars to the average ICE car owner, not so much the geek.
Other than the fact that some hybrids like the Niro keep a conventional transmission what ICE centric features are you talking about that EVs could do without? I'm curious because I actually find Tesla's approach somewhat off putting as it seems they are trying hard to be different for the sake of being different. One of my co-workers has a Model 3 and the lack of a traditional keyfob bugs her, sure she could buy one, but why should she have too? The lack of a more conventional dash is another "feature" I could do without. I think Tesla's EV tech is amazing, but their interior and user interface designs? Ehhhh.
 

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Many examples...creep in gear, arbitrary regen when the accelerator is released, unwanted friction braking, lack of control using engine, yes, key fob etc. Tesla gives you control over many of those for ICE owners stuck in their ways.
 

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Many examples...creep in gear, arbitrary regen when the accelerator is released, unwanted friction braking, lack of control using engine, yes, key fob etc. Tesla gives you control over many of those for ICE owners stuck in their ways.
OK.. I am rather confused about this.

Creep in gear. - I guess you either like it or you don't. Without creap, my wife would be hitting walls and the backs of cars. There are some love the idea of creep as it allows you to slowly creep along with all the other traffic. wonderful in stop and go around here. I can just lift up off the break without the need to lift my foot and then transfer it to an accellerator then back to the break. Why would you not want that??

Arbitrary Regen - Again, I faiul to understand the complaint about this? And to further the point, how is this at all connected to trying to make a hybrid act like an ICE only car.. they don't have regen at all! But if you take the foot off the accelerator, then the electrical motor can capture the spinning momentum and get electricity from it. It's really FREE as the motor is not slowing the car down. Your not getting much votage from it, but some. It's not until you get into a proper break that your engaging a high level charge that will slow you down as well. I guess you'd rather they not tell you about it but do it behind your back.

unwanted friction braking - So you are telling me that the Tesla doesn't use friction breaks. YEA RIGHT. And what I question is how you are testing when the friction breaks are coming on or not. And I bet as **** you'd be pretty p!-off if the car wasn't slowing down fast enough if they didn't use friction breaks when they do.

lack of control using engine - It is a hybrid! end of statement. (Tesla doesn't have an engine)

Key Fob? - This one has me confused. and what are you expecting to use to control how if and when the doors open and the car runs? Oh your using your phone. And what for those who don't actually use a cell phone.. or more fun is your cell phone runs out of power before the end of the day and now your stuck in the parking lot looking for an 110v electrical outlet to charge your cell phone to get into your car. RIGHT that is steps forward.

I like physical buttons. I like physical knobs that you can adjust the temp of the heat. I don't want to need to take off winter gloves when it's freezing cold outside, to turn on the car and put it into defrost mode. I don't feel the need to have to carry around a cell phone to be able to get into my car and run it. There is many things that Tesla does that I don't like and that is why I don't own one. But if you like it that much more then I will ask why are you not driving one?
 

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Many examples...creep in gear, arbitrary regen when the accelerator is released, unwanted friction braking, lack of control using engine, yes, key fob etc. Tesla gives you control over many of those for ICE owners stuck in their ways.
Yeah, I;m with Roadkill401 here, most of these are not "trying to be like an ICE vehicle" at all but are just related to the fact that a hybrid, PHEV or otherwise, is not an actual BEV..

Creep in gear: What would you prefer the car to do when you release the brakes? Should it just roll forward or back depending on the incline? Most of my previous vehicles have been manual transmissions, so for me the creep function is not at all like a normal car.

Arbitrary regen: Yeah, I get this one but it's not really "ICE like" unless you think Kia is trying to replicate compression braking. Sometimes I want more aggressive regen on liftoff, sometimes less, but overall it's not an issue for me.

Friction braking: Not sure what the problem here is, I find it very easy to modulate the brakes to maximize regen. I will say, it would be nice to have more feedback regarding the crossover point. Also, I'm pretty sure Tesla's have friction brakes too.

Lack of engine control: In what way? In the PHEV it's very easy to prevent the ICE from running. Does it have the same acceleration in EV mode as a Tesla? No, but then, it's not an EV, it's a PHEV with all of the compromises that brings.

It sounds like you really would prefer an EV to a HEV or PHEV, that's totally fine and I would definitely go for a BEV as a second car. Having said that, I find Tesla's approach to be needlessly complicated. Using a center mounted touchscreen for normal driving functions might make sense in a car with Level 4 or 5 autonomy but not for a car that needs driver attention.

I yield to no one in my love of geekery, but I think that automotive UI designs and behaviors are similar for a very good reason. Unlike aircraft, people expect to be able to step into a new car and be able to drive it and use all of the basic features without a bunch of relearning. That's not "ICE owners stuck in their ways" that's just reality. Unless you want to move to a world where drivers need to be "type certified" every time they buy a new car there has to be a large amount of commonality in how things work. My coworker with the Model 3 loves the car but the subtle differences in how things work still bother her as they go against years of experience and expectation. Why? Does the Tesla model deliver any real benefit or are they just different? Different is cool but can be dangerous when things don't behave as expected in an emergency.
 

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I thought much the same as you guys but after a little experience with EV's and a lot of study on the way Tesla does things, I realize the artificiality of how the PHEV Niro does things trying to resemble an ICE. And yes, I would prefer a pure EV. The cost, the current charging network and my driving habits prevent it.

A few specifics.... why creep? Purely because that's what an idling ICE does. Why would you want the car to move before you press the accelerator? It should sit still with the brake on until you do. Tesla calls it single pedal driving.

Arbitrary regen. Regen is far less efficient than coasting. Releasing the accelerator shouldn't cost efficiency. This obviously is contrary to Tesla's single pedal option but you have to choose.

Of course Tesla uses friction braking, I know you didn't think I thought it didn't... but only when you press the brake pedal in single pedal operation. I know, emergency braking and all that.....

I never carried a fob until Niro. It still frustrates me some but boy, is it handy. I have a trick finger that makes pocket access difficult and or with full hands, the fob is great.

Engine control....to maximize efficiency over 24 to 38 miles, it needs to be off period. 1kw electric heat would do most of what I need but to use it, the engine will start. I don't know exactly where it will start with acceleration. I know, watch the gauge, but I'd much rather be able to use a guaranteed full electric when I want it. Emergencies could be handled with flooring it.

Friction brakes are a real waste. I could likely make 90% of my stops without if I just had a cue as to when they are used. KIA did such a good job that I can't tell.

I totally agree with wanting levers, knobs and buttons for important controls as they can be operated without looking away from the road/HUD (another of my preferences).

As to being able to get in and drive. Tesla's operation is totally intuitive. My daughter just drove a model 3 and her words were, " it changed my life". A bit dramatic but she said in seconds she was right at home. She is a bit of a geek but certainly the Tesla is less than 12500# so no type rating required.
 

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Finally, it's not a matter of being able to drive it, EV's are far easier to drive than non EV's. It's a matter of selling it. The test drive can't be too different because even if better, different is very often a turnoff.
 

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Creep: not all EVs have creep, or it can be toggled on/off. Yes, it would be nice if Kia gave us the option.

Arbitrary regen: I have no idea what you mean by that. On the Niro PHEV, regen is controlled by how hard you press the brake pedal. Yes, I believe the BEV version has a way to set different levels, approaching (but not quite reaching) one pedal driving. But I also understand that BEV regen can be set to work the same as the HEV/PHEV. And all cars with regen also use friction brakes. They just use them sparingly, with regen providing the majority of braking force necessary under most driving conditions.

Key fob: virtually every car has a fob of some kind. Even Tesla's "credit card" functions as a fob in most ways. Keyless entry is what so many cars have now. I never take the fob out of my pocket, and overall rarely even touch it. Just a touch of the door handle locks or unlocks the door, and a button press starts the car. So I don't understand your point there.

With the PHEV there's no way around using the ICE for cabin heat. No, 1 kW is not sufficient for colder climates. And with a battery as small is the Niro has, using battery power alone (resistive or heat pump) would make the EV range drop into the low teens. I'd rather have the ICE running at an idle and burning a very small amount of gas that allows me to keep about 30 EV miles of range. I too would like the ability to force the ICE to remain off if desired, but real world driving dictates the occasional need for acceleration that the PHEV motor can't provide. It's only a 60 HP motor, and doesn't offer enough power for climbing long hills or brisk acceleration when needed. The Prius Prime PHEV has 90 HP, so can likely do much better in that regard, as will the upcoming Rav4 Prime. The Chevrolet Volt was another example of a PHEV that has enough EV power that the ICE can remain off at full throttle.

I agree that Kia has done an excellent job of blending friction brakes and regen. Do I care to know when the brakes are being applied? Not really. I know regen is providing a significant amount of the stopping power, and if I kept the car long enough that would be reflected on how long a time passes before a brake job is necessary.

If you never carried a fob before, how did you lock/unlock/drive your car? Before keyless entry, you had to use the key to unlock the door and to start the car. Not asking to argue, just honestly curious as to what you meant.
 
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