[Bevmo]

I've been waiting for the right time to buy a new '23 SX Touring Niro since the November introduction of the new models in the US and have been watching inventory closely and even attempting to make some MSRP deals.
My market is Northern California SF Bay Area and right now dealers within 500 miles (ie whole state) have 30 HEVs and 135 PHEVs....
What I have seen (after the initial rush of buyers who were waiting for the launch) is that HEVs are selling well and dealers are firm on MSRP or $1k over, but PHEVs are selling very slowly in the cities and outlying dealer allocations are just sat 90-120 days on the lot and counting, and I think relatively easy to buy at MSRP or negotiate lower.

I expect PHEV to be a smaller market because of price and needing easy access to charging, but I wonder if Kia is also having a price problem because of a combination of the recent loss of PHEV tax incentives plus 'US-made' tax incentives making non-Kia full EVs more affordable?

Q. Do you think there will be incentives to reduce the 5k price premium of the PHEV in the US in next 1-2 months? 3-4 months? Or that PHEV will remain a niche car and Kia will be OK to let the allocations sell through slowly for the rest of the year?

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I'm interested in the Niro PHEV as a 80% local shop/school run car ~8k annual miles, even though it makes no financial sense lol (lower MPG than HEV, not enough difference between electricity and gasoline prices here to ever make up the $5k price premium). The reasons to buy are 1) more power, 2) dip my toe in EV car tech, 3) reduced wear and tear on brakes and engine 4) less fossil fuel use. To me these benefits are maybe worth 3k more over the HEV not 5k.... any thoughts to sway me one way or the other?

 

[atc98092]

Do you think there will be incentives to reduce the 5k price premium of the PHEV in the US in next 1-2 months?

Some local Kia dealers have already dropped the ADM sticker on their cars, but not all. You are correct that the loss of the federal tax credit has made a significant change in the demand for Kia plug ins. Kia has announced new factories for North America, but those will take some time to bring online, and I don't believe they've announced the Niro as one of the products for them. My guess is they will be building the EV6 and the new EV9, as those are the hottest selling categories here in the US at this time.

Your thoughts on the PHEV are the same I had when I first got mine. After two years, I wanted to try an EV, so went with the Bolt EUV. I greatly enjoyed EV driving, but the EUV was not the long term car for me. Since I lucked out and was able to sell my Bolt back to GM at full price, I was hoping to move back into a PHEV. But with the current prices, I just couldn't make it pencil out. It's different for every person, so my numbers will not likely match up for someone else. Plug in cars are the future, of that I am certain. But range, charging infrastructure and price has to all come together to sway the uncertain.

 

[Mikedr206]

The eco person in me really wanted to buy/lease the PHEV. We live in Seattle, and the overwhelming majority of our trips are well within the electric range of the vehicle. However, up for our driving habits — 3,000 miles a year — I couldn’t make the numbers work for the increased cost of the PHEV.

We have a L2 charger in our parking spot (downtown condo), but it costs $30/month if you want to use it. Which is a good deal if you drive a lot — it’s unlimited usage. We pump gas 4-6 times a year, though, and even when gas was touching $6/gallon, the $30/month would represent a cost increase over furl usage.

 

[adhack]

We've owned our 23 Niro PHEV SX for 2 months now, first time Kia owners too, and really like it. Yep, the change in tax credits was a bummer. But our decision was closer to what you've laid out, adding 5) less $$$$ than a full BEV (there are a some BEV that still get a tax credit, but I wasn't interested in those brands/models).

The L1 charger that comes with the PHEV works just fine for our needs. I'd like our next car to be a BEV so I plan to eventually upgrade my garage to L2, but that's not a priority, or in the budget, right now. We live in the Philadelphia area and got the car at MSRP. I'm sure the longer a car sits on the lot the more likely the dealer is to make a deal and reduce the price. Time will tell what the demand is for these cars.

 

[atc98092]

We have a L2 charger in our parking spot (downtown condo), but it costs $30/month if you want to use it.

I never came close to using that much electricity on my PHEV per month, and that was plugging in at every opportunity and driving 1000 miles per month. My Bolt was usually $30 or more, but then that's a full EV. The highest month I have recorded for the Bolt was $43.02 for last December. January I sold it back a few days before the end of the month, and it was only $30, but likely only about 600 miles.

 

[Johnxyz]

I was at a KIA Dealer this week. I did look at vehicles while I was waiting for service. All the vehicles I looked at, which was all I saw on the lot had an ADM add on.

As a consumer that is a deal breaker for me. I would never buy a car with an ADM on it.

I wonder if this Dealer is Cuckoo for CocoPuffs or if people are actually paying this surcharge?

 

[Bevmo]

Agree about not paying market adjustments. I guess I'm asking out loud, since Niro HEV are hard to buy here - if I bought a PHEV at MSRP (or ideally less) will I regret it as Kia may offer $1k-$3k dealer or customer incentives on PHEV soon because inventory is not moving...
What happens to cars that are sat unsold on lots for months - aren't the dealers paying a floorplan loan rate on those that are costing them money?

 

[SkywalkerPhD]

I bought my Niro PHEV about four weeks ago. I paid MSRP for it, with no dealer markup and only a $450 doc fee. The dealers here have plenty of them and lots of EV models too. I also got a $1,500 rebate from my state for buying a PHEV, so it worked out pretty well.

 

[Dovidan]

@ Bevmo: Ditto on your reasons to get a PHEV over an EV. The decision was much easier before Fed tax credit went bye bye. You absolutely correct that financially it makes no sense to get a PHEV when you only drive 8K miles / yr.
As kermit would say, it ain't easy being green.

I amazed at the HEV to PHEV ration in your area. Historically I have the impression that Gen 1 Niro HEVs outsold the PHEVs by a ratio of 10:1 or higher! Either your local dealers are selling HEVs as fast as the come in and the PHEVs are languishing (due to a substantial degree to the loss of Tax Cred) or Kia severely miscalculated on what would sell the most. Actually, they may have h had production numbers set prior to the changes in US tax law.

Do PHEVs qualify for any CA tax incentives or is all of the local money going towards reparations?

>>What happens to cars that are sat unsold on lots for months - aren't the dealers paying a floorplan loan rate on those that are costing them money?<<<

They eventually get sold at a discounted price or shipped to dealers who are having more success moving a particular model. But sometimes it takes months for the manufacturers to acknowledge their error in the form of reduced prices and incentives. That said, money talks and you never know how low they will go until you make an offer then head for the door if they reject it. Better yet, make your offer to all the regional dealers on line to ferret out who is in the bargain mode - especially the last week of the month.

 

[Bevmo]

The HEV : PHEV ratio (for SX Touring) is amazing hence my post about how tenable is it for the dealers that PHEVs are not selling. HEVs are selling well, supply was good to begin with but I have watched them go and even missed out on buying one twice ('outbid' by others paying over MSRP). CA has changed PHEV, EV (and solar) incentives to target lower income levels over time...I suppose like the federal tax credits have income caps now too.

Anyway, I think you are right, this could take many months yet to play out. I have started to notice a few PHEV VINs arrive here from dealers in other parts of the country, so maybe they are selling even worse elsewhere ....

I guess I will be making some offers at end of Mar or Apr and see who is interested in shifting metal.

 

[adhack]

I’m sure these numbers aren’t 100% accurate, but in my area (Philly) there are 63 HEV (5 trim levels) and 64 PHEV (2 trim options) - as shown on kia.com. Within 50 miles (19030), there’s just about every “electric” model of Sportage, Niro EV, EV6, and Sorento available now too.

@Bevmo - maybe inventory is super light in your area, but there’s electric cars a plenty on the east coast.

 

[atc98092]

Definitely locality based. I just checked Cars.com and they show 78 HEVs within 50 miles of me, but only 27 PHEVs. EVs are better at 52 total. For other models, there's only 8 Sorento PHEVs and 12 Sportage PHEVs. We simply aren't getting the PHEVs here in the Seattle area.

 

[pcguy]

the PHEV is difficult to sell at the current pricing. you have multiple BEV including tesla model 3 only a couple grand more with full tax credit. Same situation existing under the PHEV price point. Kia must adjust pricing.

 

[EdnasDriver]

I do not understand why anyone would get a PHEV with only a small amount of range. We have had a Niro EV for over three years and think it is great. The environmental benefit of an EV is much higher considering its marginal cost, compared to replacing one of our tractors (with a nonexistent Ev-tractor) on the farm.
If you are price sensitive consider getting a used EV.

 

[Bevmo]

Many EVs have $1500 cash back across most (but not all) dealer web sites I am looking at in my region. Fingers crossed PHEV see something like this in April

 

[FlNiro]

View attachment 8467
Many EVs have $1500 cash back across most (but not all) dealer web sites I am looking at in my region. Fingers crossed PHEV see something like this in April

I just looked at Deland Kia's website and they show a few rebates for both EVs and PHEVs. One is a retail balloon rebate? Never heard of that one before? Anybody know what that means?

 

[Bevmo]

I do not understand why anyone would get a PHEV with only a small amount of range.

PHEV as too compromised or the best of both worlds depends on your point of view. I suppose mine is that PHEV 30 miles will cover 80%+ of my daily urban driving needs and be ready for a longer or emergency trip without range limitation. For me the total cost of BEV is too high today including home power upgrades.

The economic sense of PHEV vs HEV vs ICE, or the true environmental impact of BEV tying up a lot of minerals that are not utilized efficiently is another matter...

 

[atc98092]

I do not understand why anyone would get a PHEV with only a small amount of range.

It really depends on the driver's use case. Many drivers never exceed 30 miles in a day on a regular basis. But they might have occasional long distance travel that isn't well suited for an EV. As a former PHEV and EV driver, I can say that the PHEV actually fit my needs better than the EV, mostly because of the loss of range in winter conditions. My Bolt could do 200 miles (at 80% charge) during the summer, but it dropped to 130 miles with the cold and wet weather. And 130 miles was insufficient for my trips to my parent's home. Stopping to charge on such a short trip was annoying, and unacceptable to my other half. There's also a small subset of drivers that do drive 200-300 every day, and an EV would add measurable time to their total driving day. I wouldn't want an EV under those conditions either, except perhaps the Lucid. But that's more money than I want to spend.

 

[pcguy]

It really depends on the driver's use case. Many drivers never exceed 30 miles in a day on a regular basis. But they might have occasional long distance travel that isn't well suited for an EV. As a former PHEV and EV driver, I can say that the PHEV actually fit my needs better than the EV, mostly because of the loss of range in winter conditions. My Bolt could do 200 miles (at 80% charge) during the summer, but it dropped to 130 miles with the cold and wet weather. And 130 miles was insufficient for my trips to my parent's home. Stopping to charge on such a short trip was annoying, and unacceptable to my other half. There's also a small subset of drivers that do drive 200-300 every day, and an EV would add measurable time to their total driving day. I wouldn't want an EV under those conditions either, except perhaps the Lucid. But that's more money than I want to spend.

It's really a matter of needs and situation.
when I bought the PHEV, it was a matter of financial compromise, because there was no EV in my price range that had sufficient range ( greater than 130 miles) that fit the budget of 40k or under.
This was due to the Bolt being on stop sale for the battery recall.
What ended up happening was an electrical fault which Kia was unable to resolve so they bought it back, and at that point the bolt was on sale again.

After experiencing ownership of the PHEV and now an EV, I can say absolutely the Bolt is a vastly superior driving experience in comparison to the old style Niro PHEV. There is no comparison between the two when it comes to driving , smoothness, and available torque to move with traffic. Yes, the Niro can go a longer distance without refueling or recharging, but that laggard response is not easy to live with. I understand the new model is supposed to improve upon that, but I still question Kia's ability to competently repair their own electrified vehicles.

I understand a lot of folks can have no problems with their Kia, but when someone does, and you have to experience the Kia service system, things can not turn out the way a person would expect.

 

[atc98092]

@pcguy i agree about the Bolt compared to the Niro PHEV prior to the 2023 refresh. The Niro now has almost 50% more EV power, which would make a big difference. Still not Bolt acceleration, but much better. And distance/range is still a major issue for some people. The PHEV is a great way to get people used to plugging the car in and the smooth and quiet EV experience.