[lafe005]

Fuel won't clean your intake valves with direct injection. Happy you don't have any problems, but guess what, I don't either without the extra cost. Reasonable for port injection of course. Who knows, perhaps it could help keep your direct injectors clean in a way that the high pressure and ignition cycle cannot.

ok! so how do you clean it "doctor" ?!!!

 

[ponymony]

its poor casting in the primary engine components. Im going through it on 2017 Niro number two. Been through lemon law arbitration on it once, and Im about to go again. I thought I just got a "lemon" and bought another. Nope, same stuff. Found these photos of a cylinder head on another forum.



Part of my rebuttal to the arbitrator:



I have attached screenshots and photos of internet forum conversations by other Kia Niro (and Hyundai Ioniq – which shares the same Kappa drivetrain as the Kia Niro ) owners. These forum conversations list at least eight owners that have had the same stuttering, jerking, misfiring issues that I have experienced. These are only the owners that experienced these issues and that have come forward online. There may be many more unaccounted in this short survey. One owner in Europe of a Kappa powered Hyundai Ioniq, even has pictures [attached] that show the primary engine components were incorrectly cast or milled at the factory, leading to misfiring and skipping issues. This demonstrates that this is a known issue with this drivetrain. One forum suggests that this issue also may negatively impact the emissions of the vehicle also: “The German Auto Club (ADAC) recently ecotested the Ioniq, Niro, Prius and dozens of other hybrid, diesel and gas cars. It found that many GDI cars, including Ioniq and Niro, failed the CO and PN parts of the Euro6 emissions regulations on their cycle (based on the upcoming WLTP). Ioniq had triple the allowed CO and 4 times the PN. Ioniq scored 5.1 l/100km fuel consumption while the Niro got 5.8. Meanwhile, the Prius passed all emissions rules with ease and got 4.1l/100km. Based on this, the Ioniq and Niro are not ecofriendly and may not even be legal.” I recently owned two Volkswagen Diesels that were affected by the EPA forced buyback. This information makes me begin to question the integrity of these large vehicle manufacturers when it comes to these issues.

With all the above, How do you explain that the jerking happens mostly when the engine is cold?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[nounounounou]

OMFG.!!! My bad!!....you're Soooo right! man do i am sooo dumb to have been robbed since 2010..,..!! Holy Macaroni!

no, you might have solved other issue than carbon buildup on intake valve...


I'm just using what has been said and conclude that IF the carbon buildup on intake valve is the issue, then, additive in fuel is of no help for that.
by the way it seems toyota solved this carbon buildup issue by puttin direct AND indirect injection on its new prius.
And last thing: more people put nothing and have no problem than people put additive and have no problem... could we conclude that it is better to put noting else but good fuel?




edit: some links about carbon buildup

on subaru
https://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f337/2019-carbon-buildup-789505/

 

[lafe005]

And last thing: more people put nothing and have no problem than people put additive and have no problem... could we conclude that it is better to put noting else but good fuel?

That is so true!

 

[Roadkill401]

So, to throw a different idea out there. I can't change the design of the engine. I can however with a bumper to bumper warranty with Kia and demand that the ports get cleaned. Now it will be harder to do in 5 years, but what would you be looking for in diagnosable issues that would point to carbon buildup on the ports say in the 7-10 year mark where you can force KIA to fix the engine and solve the problem they designed into the car.

 

[deltasmith]

no, you might have solved other issue than carbon buildup on intake valve...


I'm just using what has been said and conclude that IF the carbon buildup on intake valve is the issue, then, additive in fuel is of no help for that.
by the way it seems toyota solved this carbon buildup issue by puttin direct AND indirect injection on its new prius.
And last thing: more people put nothing and have no problem than people put additive and have no problem... could we conclude that it is better to put noting else but good fuel?




edit: some links about carbon buildup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrLNDgrIw3U



on subaru
https://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f337/2019-carbon-buildup-789505/

Nice post, thanks for the links.



Yeah, I'm slowly becoming a believer in "good fuel".



The video was kind of long, but worth watching (and the guy who put it together has some impressive graphics). The video mentions "catch-cans" in the PCV system. Does anyone know if Niro includes one? Has anyone added one aftermarket? The video also makes an interesting point about oil volatility - something new to contemplate when getting an oil change (at least, new to me).

I'm having a bit more appreciation for Jason Carmichael's post on preventative cleaning. But one concern about that approach is that if you don't do it frequently, then when you do get around to it, you might wind up cleaning some pretty large and crusty pieces of grit from the valves down into the cylinder.

 

[lafe005]

Yeah, I'm slowly becoming a believer in "good fuel"..

I alway's try to fuel up at a Shell Station.! Ordinary or Super..

 

[Mal]

Just another reason I'm a believer in synthetic oil. It has a higher flash point than conventional oils therefore, only a guess, less likely to foul intake valves. I install catch cans in my hobby cars and likely will in Niro if I keep it past the warranty.

 

[Roberd42]

The only thing I can figure is the flow is different with cold air vs warm air. The ambient temperature and humidity plays a larger roll. Low temps and high humidity are the worst.

They now have submitted a several page discourse saying the surging us normal action for the dual clutch transmission and that there is no problem with the car and I’m just unhappy with the way it drives. Then they bring up the last car and it’s issues and claim I shouldn’t have bought another Niro and that I shouldn’t be allowed to Lemon two cars, attacking my personal character and trying to gaslight me. These guys are sooooo sleezy. This company itself and their dealer Evans Kia are horrible and I can’t even express my disgust.

I can provide links to the other forum conversations on this topic. They are an excellent read.

Both of my cars were 2017 Niros. It’s my understanding this defect has been rectified in the 2018 model.

First Niro: KNDCC3LC9H5034917
Second: KNDCC3LC8H5092520

 

[Roberd42]

I sued the dealer in small claims court for my “usage” damages of almost $2500 for the dealers negligent misrepresentation that the faulty engine was normal action of the car on the test drive. The dealer sent it to KMA who didn’t respond and I won a default judgement paid by KMA on the dealers behalf. Now they are bringing up that as well in their defense.

I didn’t feel a single stutter out of the next Niro until about 1,200 miles. Second or third time I felt it, i went straight to the dealer to mitigate usage charges. Sure enough, the symptoms steadily get worse. My last fill up yielded 36mpg.

 

[91cavgt]

I have a 2018 Niro and have experienced the occasional stutter that feels exactly like a missfire. At first I thought it was a bad tank of gas. As I drove it more I thought it was just bad drive ability programming in the computer.

Had a VERY similar problem years ago in a brand new 2009 Scion XB. Took it to the local Toyota dealership and took the service manager for a ride, then did the same thing with their lead mechanic. This problem was very easy to duplicate though as it would happen at exactly 35 mph. After hooking a scanner up to it and driving with the head mechanic, he tells me this problem occurred at the point in the computer programming when the computer went from deceleration fuel cut to no deceleration fuel cut. It would give a stutter, which was very similar to what I am feeling in my Niro. Toyota stated that it was normal programming and nothing could be done to fix it.


My guess is due to more stringent mpg requirements to auto manufacturers, they are now having to program vehicles as fuel efficient as possible instead of leaving a little wiggle room so to speak in the programming to give better drive ability. Yes, the problem with the Scion could be fixed with different programming, but it would then have to be recertified with the EPA due to changes, no matter how minute, that would effect the mpg.


I’m going to note where and when this happens next as well as what the weather is. If it can be duplicated then the manufacturer has to address the issue. If it is truly intermittent then they do not have to do anything about it.


Btw, I am a former ASE certified mechanic.

 

[91cavgt]

Yesterday afternoon it was 35 degrees and the Niro was almost up to operating temperature. I was accelerating from a stop light and right at 40 mph it stuttered. The Shifter was in Sport mode.

This morning ambient temp is 24. Once again after accelerating from a stop with the engine almost up to operating temp it stuttered at 40 mph with mild acceleration. The shifter was in normal Eco mode.

 

[91cavgt]

I found the cause of this stutter/miss/jerk!!!!


After a couple of weeks of monitoring different engine parameters with my OBDII scanner, I finally found something that corresponds exactly to the stutter.

First I found that this is most noticeable when the engine temp is in the range from 150 to 170 degrees Fahrenheit. Then I saw that while cruising at a constant speed of 50 mph, the throttle position fluctuates by 4 even when I am keeping the gas pedal constant.

For reference, full throttle is 85 while zero throttle(engine at idle) is 14.

So the throttle fluctuating by 4 does not seem like a big deal when the overall throttle movement from idle to full throttle is 71. But wait, you don’t cruise at full throttle so the full throttle position of 85 needs to be ignored for right now.

Idle speed is 14 and cruising throttle position at 50 mph is 30. Subtract 14 from 30 and you get 16. That is how much throttle is needed to maintain 50 mph. So the throttle position at the engine was fluctuating by 4. 4 is 25% of 16. So the throttle is changing 25% when the stutter/jerk/miss happens! That is huge! And it changes VERY quickly.

 

[91cavgt]

So why is this happening?


When the engine is warming up, the efficiency of the engine changes greatly. This makes a smooth transition very difficult to program from an engineer’s prospective. But now you also have to charge a battery as well. This requires more throttle to maintain speed AND charge the hybrid battery at the same time. As the battery charges, it needs less and less power as the battery approaches 75%. This means it takes less engine power.

So on one hand, as the engine warms up you need less and less throttle to maintain a given speed, but you also need to take into account charging of the hybrid battery into the programming. This is what makes programming a hybrid car beyond extremely difficult. This is what manufacturers and mechanics call a driveability problem.

So in short, there is nothing we can do to fix this. KIA could fix this with a computer flash. But since it is not a safety issue, I highly doubt a recall would be issued.

Ohh, and the more weight you have in the car, the more noticeable this problem is. The smoother the road is, the easier it is to feel it. So if you drive on rough roads with only you in the car you might not ever notice it. If you have a lot of extra weight in the car and drive on smooth roads then you will probably notice it.

 

[91cavgt]

Can anyone else with a scan tool confirm or deny what I have seen?



Plus, I found that the more weight you have in the car, the more noticeable the stutter is. It is most noticeable when my whole family is in the car along with all of the normal things I keep in my Niro.

 

[dsh72]

Hmm...I traveled loaded several hundred miles and never noticed this issue. I would assume it has to do with programming...maybe not getting the proper amount of fuel for acceleration???

 

[yticolev]

I've never experienced a stutter. What I do notice is the programming for the motor is not quite as fuzzy as it should be. I doubt if anyone else notices this (I seem to be unusually sensitive to this), but the motor is constantly varying supplied torque. This is particularly noticeable at lower speeds where the load is lower. And I know it is the motor and not the engine programming because it happens on motor drive only. There is a constant back and forth varying pressure on my back from the changes in torque from acceleration changes. Not enough to make the speedometer reading budge in the slightest. While I'm usually on cruise control from 20 mph up, I can notice this behavior holding a constant speed manually. As I said, more noticeable at lower speeds, but I can feel it all the way up to 65 mph (on the flat).

 

[Isaiah Perez]

I had this issue... then it got worse

I had the whole stutter and jerk issue... but it got worse.

It got to the point where when it tried to shift from 2nd to 3rd gear, it would not make the shift. So I took it in, and after a couple of days they saw the computer registered the issue but they had no clue what was causing it. Then on the 4th day they said there was an electrical component in the clutch that was causing the issue and replaced it. That was 2 months ago. Today, the problem is back, and it happened on the freeway. On top of that, it would not let me switch into sports mode, and when I got to work i smelled a burning smell that smelled like either electrical or brake pads... and last I noticed the battery was not charging on my way to work. It went from half way to a little under a quarter of the battery level... Time to go back to the shop...

 

[Amellor]

Can anyone else with a scan tool confirm or deny what I have seen?



Plus, I found that the more weight you have in the car, the more noticeable the stutter is. It is most noticeable when my whole family is in the car along with all of the normal things I keep in my Niro.

I'd have to say this is 100% true and when we really notice it. Our nearest dealership is totally useless. We avid at all costs because they never help and totally blow you off.

We have actually experienced this "jerk" since the first week of ownership. I was dreading that we made a bad decision. It was our first Hybrid and after mentioning it to the dealership, they of course blew us off and told us it was a hybrid thing. It has since gotten worse and we put a lot of mileage on our cars. We are at 1 year of ownership and 21k mileage. I can tell you, I hate this car. The drive is wretched and feels like you are in an over weighed golf cart, honestly our golf cart drives better. It is such a loose drive around corners my previous SUV seemed like a sport car compared to this. And the jerk, oh the jerk. I think the worst is the delay when you step on the gas. It is so significant I have people thinking I am not going at 4 way stops I almost get hit because it finally engages and jolts forward when the other person has decided to go. I've had to drive with it in "sport" mode most of the time just so it will respond when the gas is pressed.

We've owned Kia's for years. This thing is a massive disappointment. Then on the other hand my friend owns the 2017 and it drives totally different than mine. It simply makes no sense.

 

[deltasmith]

I'd have to say this is 100% true and when we really notice it. Our nearest dealership is totally useless. We avid at all costs because they never help and totally blow you off.

We have actually experienced this "jerk" since the first week of ownership. I was dreading that we made a bad decision. It was our first Hybrid and after mentioning it to the dealership, they of course blew us off and told us it was a hybrid thing. It has since gotten worse and we put a lot of mileage on our cars. We are at 1 year of ownership and 21k mileage. I can tell you, I hate this car. The drive is wretched and feels like you are in an over weighed golf cart, honestly our golf cart drives better. It is such a loose drive around corners my previous SUV seemed like a sport car compared to this. And the jerk, oh the jerk. I think the worst is the delay when you step on the gas. It is so significant I have people thinking I am not going at 4 way stops I almost get hit because it finally engages and jolts forward when the other person has decided to go. I've had to drive with it in "sport" mode most of the time just so it will respond when the gas is pressed.

We've owned Kia's for years. This thing is a massive disappointment. Then on the other hand my friend owns the 2017 and it drives totally different than mine. It simply makes no sense.

Given your experience (friend's car drives totally different), it seems likely that a knowledgeable mechanic could solve your problem. The difficulty may lie in finding one. I wonder if Kia Corporate might be able to help you with that (or else lean on your nearest dealer to start paying attention).


I haven't had this problem, but I have read the service procedure for changing the engine clutch actuator fluid and it requires special Kia test equipment to "retrain" the computer after replacing the fluid. I wonder if the stutter jerk symptom comes up when the computer has not been properly trained (or when the fluid is low/contaminated)? The suggested maintenance interval is 22,500 miles for replacing that fluid, so if you're at 21k, you might want to try getting it done. In the worst case, you'd have completed a recommended maintenance step, in the best case, you might also solve the stuttering problem. The only thing is: some people have reported that their dealer wasn't familiar with the procedure, and others have said that it cost a bit over $100 to get it done.